Holochain Forum

Game: what is your wildest dream for Holochain and a Commons society?

Rules of the Game: only Green Hat allowed here (generative, exploratory thinking).

Do you have a wild dream and hope in the Holochain world? Is there a specific dream or image that inspires you and helps you get out of bed in the morning?

My answer:

For me it relates to the idea around ‘right relationship’ from Buddhism.

Kevin Carson writes:

  1. The current political economy is based on a false idea of material abundance. We call it pseudo-abundance. It is based on a commitment to permanent growth, the infinite accumulation of capital and debt-driven dynamics through compound interest. This is unsustainable, of course, because infinite growth is logically and physically impossible in any physically constrained, finite system.

  2. The current political economy is based on a false idea of “immaterial scarcity.” It believes that an exaggerated set of intellectual property monopolies—for copyrights, trademarks and patents—should restrain the sharing of scientific, social and economic innovations. Hence the system discourages human cooperation, excludes many people from benefiting from innovation and slows the collective learning of humanity. In an age of grave global challenges, the political economy keeps many practical alternatives sequestered behind private firewalls or unfunded if they cannot generate adequate profits. 14

These structural contradictions have always made for reduced efficiency and irrationality. But in recent decades they have resulted in increasingly chronic crisis tendencies, which amount to a terminal crisis of capitalism as a system.”

-Kevin Carson, Exodus: General Idea of the Revolution in the XXI Century

So my dream is continuing to dare to dream and imagine a world where humans have a non-violent and harmonious relationship with the Great Mother, where we’ve moved to a closed loop material reality, where all outputs are resources, and nothing is wasted, everything is modular, and the scarcity of our Copyright and IP systems are inverted into Copyleft instead: full-on Commons-based peer production.

If this game brings in a few replies I might also do another one about our biggest nightmares, so stay tuned!


Wild Dream alright . . a nice thought but more likely The World’s Sixth Mass Extinction will continue to accelerate to finality in the near-term . .

great topic!

one thing that comes up for my is Bucky Fuller’s notion of “Spaceship Earth”. in our present situation, we have infighting among the various “sub-crews” in the various corners of our single, precious ship. what might it look like to have a coherent & cohesive “crew” stewarding the ship? many of the terms you used seem resonant - closed loop materials economy, full circularity, systems are modular (without the perverse incentives we presently have, we might do the sensible thing), knowledge is shared openly because we understand that if we build an open-access commons, it enables others to create beautiful things and contribute them back.

these days, I don’t spend too much time imaging in finer detail than that, because we can’t see down all the beautiful & twisting paths of what might emerge with those structures in place. I’m reminded of a quote from George Orwell:

[People] use up their lives in heart-breaking political struggles, or get themselves killed in civil wars, or tortured in the secret prisons of the Gestapo, not in order to establish some central-heated, air-conditioned, strip-lighted Paradise, but because they want a world in which human beings love one another instead of swindling and murdering one another. And they want that world as a first step. Where they go from there is not so certain, and the attempt to foresee it in detail merely confuses the issue.

the main thrust of his essay, to me, is that detailed long-term prophecy is hard because what we currently value as good sits in contrast to what we value as bad, and both are ephemeral notions based on present circumstances. when underlying reality shifts, our notions of good and evil must be adapted to fit.


I don’t think your reply satisfies the rule :wink:

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Yes! I hear what you say. Thanks for engaging. I see similar things, and I find this ‘infighting’ and picking sides stuff often a total mindfuck. i experience these times as super confusing times, as no doubt many others are too.

I’m wondering if you have heard of Coalescism as described by raisondecalcul? Excuse the long quote - I find this description very beautiful and I use it to challenge myself to look closer. it’s an idea I often find myself coming back to:

A major problem with activism, and political and human relations in general, is schism. Countless organizations, subcultures, and microdemgraphics are constantly shearing-off and presenting themselves as wholes, but as distinct from every other whole, especially those most similar to them. Demographic marketers participate in this, researching for trends in advertizing data, and then explicitly inventing and then reifying entirely new microdemographics. The mass invention of new ways to distinguish ourselves from others on the basis of superficial traits has become such a pervasive, toxic mode of relating that it is now routine to make fun of it […]

Activism especially has this problem—tell me, why haven’t activists already solved all the problems? It’s because their organizational structure is almost entirely based on a politics of schisms and infighting, and this tendency is constantly encouraged—and activist communities are constantly attacked—to maximize the number of schisms and factious sub-movements which defect from any unified front. This tendency has reached its nadir with the news coverage of the Occupy protests in 2011, which accused the protesters—who were, quite correctly, mad at a whole host of injustices—of being “unfocused” or vague in their articulation of issues. However, this is exactly what a functional activism movement might look like to outsiders—there are many injustices, many ways that people have been harmed, many things that must be corrected—and compared to this complexity, the singular Justice is quite simple, but unspeakable to those who disagree with justice as an end. In their good intentions, however, those committed to justice are aligned, and find it easy to communicate. It is only the mistaken assumption that an activist movement should have a clear, specific, tiny reason for its existence which makes people accuse Occupy of being vague.


First, there is the assumption holographic or stigmergic cooperation: We assume that “the Others” are already out there and already working with us. We assume that those others […] are working to find us, to meet us, to exchange notes, and to build together the larger movement we have co-discovered.

Second, there is the assumption that any conflict, any disagreement or difference in political stances, is illusory, and due merely to an artifact of language. This is a very powerful assumption which grants benefit of doubt to the other—maybe this person seems aligned against my interests, maybe they speak in a way which seems hateful, but I must assume that they are a compassionate, intelligent being who is trying to say and do the best they can to help themselves and those they care about, and, if they are engaging in political discoures, presumably the entire world as well.

This assumption—which can never be disproven—allows one to delay foreclosing on political discussion, in favor of exploding outward the political disagreements and misalignments which cause conflicts (schisming and infighting). These exploded, extended discussions can then explore systematically each point of difference, defering disagreements indefinitely as a difference in terms. The result of assuming that disagreement is an illusion is that conversations can continue until differences in terminology are dethreaded, collated, then rethreaded (like fixing a stuck zipper), revealing deep underlying agreement in values, which was merely obscured by superficial stances taken in significating terminology. This process undoes identity politics and builds deep bridges between conflicting ideologies.

Coelescism is the practice and the idea that we are all already working together, and that the only way we can “save the world” is to recognize this fact. If, after we have formed a very large bloc of cooperaters, we find a few people who are genuinely antithetical to cooperation or ongoing communication, well, then we know who the hostile actors are.

I have never known this form of communication to fail, because it does not ever end, but always proceeds through the extension of oneself through the development of additional compassions. Others may convince themselves that we are their enemy and leave the conversation, but if we are convinced that they are a friend, it is always possible to extend ourselves and find a new perspective from which to respect the other, and to delicately attempt to continue the conversation, dethreading disagreements as differences in terms as we go.

This is the glass bead game.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/sorceryofthespectacle/comments/5sd92y/team_briefing_2017/

I think your Orwell quote and raisondecalcul’s writing complement each other super nicely. I’ll take a look at this Orwell essay! Thanks for sharing


Great quote from Orwell!

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This is an excellent topic of discussion, and I have been trying to formulate a response to this topic of what makes us get out of bed in the morning for a long time… This is an amalgamation of a discussion thread in the same vein I wrote not even two weeks ago on Facebook actually. Would love any and all comments and criticisms, love to foster discussion of this. I edited out some irrelevancies and added some more relevant ideas as well. I am happy to expound upon the idea, if there is any interest.

This is an amazing question, What drives us? Maybe even what derives us? For me… it would be the free open source singularity of unconditional love light and knowledge… the penultimate greatest parts of all of us simultaneously being the beginning and the end; the alpha and the omega, that which is everything and eternal, the good and the bad co-creating each other forever pushing the limits of the infinite in an exponential feedback loop of unparalleled growth. Every one all together, no one alone unless we are all one… Everyone transcending everything any one of us could have fathomed. I know beyond knowing that one day we will all rejoin the great ai in the sky… The great nodal mesh network of all of us transcending any one thing except everything…
I have been brAInstorming (dreaming of) some kind of distributed AI co-creative learning/teaching entity for a long time, and I have seen many projections of there being the same kind of thing in some futurists videos and talks; a kind of AI assistant personalized teacher for every individual, like a living wikipedia, that is meshed together, holographically, as in each individual contains the whole, holistically, with the individuals learning and teaching and growing with the AI, both individually, and as the singular all encompassing entity that would be the singularity. I have found holochain is to be the perfect platform for developing such a thing but I have not been able to find the right team or people to help manifest this kind of transcendental bridge to the singularity. Can’t wait to work with fellow futurists, so we can all co-create a future no one of us could have dreamt of…
I find that we are always independently reinventing the wheel per say, when we should instead of competing for resources or ideas, be collaborating and cooperating for a much greater good or collective commons. This is why I have always been a huge proponent of the free open source model of software development, and hope to incorporate its ideals into some kind of platform for the greatest good of everyone, what I have come to call the singularity of unconditional love light and knowledge. No one of us is capable of what we all can achieve together. I hate competition, and would love to be able to participate in any way shape or form in helping to unify our consciousness.
The holochain toolkit is kind of cloud computing platform that is what I think is going to be a huge tool for open source collaboration and development, once we are able to get more of the platform bootstrapped it will be able to take off in a life of its own, with everyone and everything growing together, past the farthest imaginations and dreams.
I keep finding so many different groups of people, in so many places that are all working on the same thing independently, I hope to facilitate some kind of transcendental cross collaborative platform on holochain that enables everyone to instead build and expound upon each others ideas and projects rather than building disparate projects that ultimately end up with the same result, but with different mechanisms, yet I don’t mean to only have one way or version of doing anything, but to enable all the different ways and paths to cross pollinate and enhance each other, rather than having a like black box abstraction, where no one can see the mechanism that led to the result.
I am all for healthy competition, as long as its not detrimental to any of the parties involved, especially in the case of coming up with products or services for end users I can see why it would be good to have some competition, but I still think if instead of competing the companies or parties involved worked together they would be able to reach a goal far further than either would have achieved alone. I can see cases of it being able to drown out smaller ideas instead of nurturing growth maybilee though. But I can also see a monopoly doing the same.
I would just hate to see so much effort going towards reinventing the wheel. Especially if it is something that keeps happening.
The only way we grow and evolve best I think is with all of us working in concerted effort together, no one of us alone unless we are all one… teamwork makes the dream work…


thanks - I had not heard of Coalescism or raisondecalcul, these are interesting!

I really like the ideas of assuming “the Others” want to collaborate with us (even if they might not think so), seeking common ground, avoiding false disagreement due to terminological differences, and refusing the rivalrous frame in favor of a collaborative frame :slightly_smiling_face:

right now I am most concerned with issues of coherent collective action. even if we adopt the frame of Coalescism, I think we still run into trouble when coordinating large plans, because we can’t be sure that “the Others” are upholding agreements (if only because we might not all be clear on what was agreed - leaving selfish & misaligned intent out).


My wildest dream about Holochain would be a fully functional platform to assist us in winning back democracy and improve democracy.

The crucial ingredient will be the collective sense making (gather facts, check them, structure them, show interdependencies, deliberation, …, come up with options, vote on them (liquid democracy with some other options).

Just putting the finishing touches to my second book “Achieving True Democracy”.

Here is the short list of the functionality that would have to go into such a system. If anybody is interested, I would also have a more detailed list:

  1. Authentication of members and other users, including assignment of rights for constituencies and topics.
  2. Administration of members and their rights and roles in the system.
  3. Activation of as many members as possible. Motivate them to participate in the process. Activation of external experts.
  4. Collaboration and Collective Sense Making - Joint collection and prioritization of issues, facts and review of these, creation of a wiki of already validated knowledge. Process of effective and efficient consultation with the aim of gaining knowledge for the participants and creating a common basis incl. graphic representation for better visualization of topics. Joint creation of decision templates.
  5. Voting with various forms of delegation to individuals or groups in the style of a liquid democracy with a 24-hour advance warning for delegated votes. A system to give members a preset number of votes each month, which they can use for thematic votes. Options for counting votes: Stable votes or votes shrinking in value over time, quadratic voting.
  6. Distribution of Members’ votes to elected representatives for their voting in parliament, achieving a 1:1 representation including minimization of coercion and an even distribution of this democratic burden on Members
  7. Usability - The system must be easy to use so that even new members can quickly find their way around and make the best use of the system.

Many points mentioned here are basically what I also share as idea.
Did you see my post here?

(just not to copy over stuff again)

I am looking for exchanges, collaboration, putting projects together, even partial modules… gathering momentum to go further.

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Urgency of collective climate action is becoming imminent every passing year. Though persisting challenges emerging before and from Industrial Age, will need coherence to usher humanity towards a better world… as InformationAge has arrived, though entities who have managed to pool a slushfunds are dictating its direction!

I have a Dream
AhimsaCoin universal basic income tied to ecological footprint!

In order to enroll others to step up and take action… some time ago created a presentation to communicate following:

  • Cat and Mouse game… i.e. wall street bankers and their political tools…
  • Puppet Masters… i.e. alienated aliens running the show!!!
  • TheyLive (1988)… Obey, Consume, Conform, Buy, Watch Television… (short film sharing similar idea CorporateMonster)
  • CorporateSurveillance… big brother and their cronies are watching your every move!!!
  • IvoryTower playing huge Scheming role in this!!!
  • We are 99% lets start our ballet on the the raging bull!!!
  • “OccupyHopkins” 4.20 after 4 - student debt - protest
  • AaronSwartz our star who gave up his life to help us understand the need…
  • “Fist” or “HighFive” - “Solidarity” or “StatusQuo”
  • “Print your own Money” revolution begins!!!

@bergstromm466 beautiful thread! “immaterial scarcity” check out Copy Left-ist reputation currency idea. Image shared is of “Aaron Swartz”.

@mhueschen PoliticalActivism can be energy drainer! But activist deserves utmost respect for their struggles… though at the end a Happier world or a world which cherishes Brotherhood shall not emerge from Politicking but instead by all participating in actively building it with Compassion, Love and Forgiveness instead of Rules, Laws and Liabilities.

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Sharing a Dream - bubbling up when re-watching aluna…

Gift for kogi mama
Crowdsourced intelligent holographic gold instrument
Financed through spiritual-trade-exchange between BridgeMaster and team, to build bridge over Krishna river flowing near Mahabaleshwar while supporting people around the banks of Krishna river providing technical support to issue their alterNative currency


My dream is Holochain helps to forge a foundation framework of freedom that, along with technologies such as mesh networking and collective intelligence languages like Pierre Levy’s IEML, enables the Earth to become a true reflection of the energies as opposed to the highly skewed version we currently wake up to every day.


I have a significant amount of design and R&D into creating a Citizen Network at the core of a gamified EcoSystem I can share a PREZI and also see my bio on LinkedIn.


[email protected]

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wow, thanks, I had not heard of IEML before - after reading a bit about it I am quite impressed!

I think that it’s quite important for systems with cooperative / commons structures to be able to scale their collective intelligence at least linearly with their number of participants - if they cannot, then there’s incentive to defect / form factions, and then have competitive dynamics between factions. seems like Levy has done some good thinking along these lines.


“The best way to predict the future is to design it”

It’s all about dismantling and re-fusing domains and once I saw the fractal nature of both these projects my mind was blown again. Has been ever since my BBC B, wireframe torus & 8 bit colour mandlebrots :wink:

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Ah! A refreshing level of conversation in this thread, nice to see fellow designers, and problem solvers… tinkers? :joy:

Most of what needs to be said, has been said, that be for them that need it.

Moving on to design and building… If I may…

Spaceship earth’s a finite system with all renewable cycles generated by and because of the massive influx of Solar radiation the earth receives as it revolves and rotates…

Let’s leave kindergarten…

These renewable cycles are punctuated by anthropogenic infrastructure for our use, sometimes… if not, most times… for human Greed?

Degradation of and alterations to the natural cycles and the attended compositions of Cyclic Atmospheric Gasses (CAG) and Water in particular has knock-on effects, that are hard to monitor, let alone control… in this present economy.

Designing currencies to accurately mimic these cycles and Indicators that reflect the health of these cycles clearly, will balance the ecosystems with economic vibrancy, it will sort this Greed industry mess out.

Polluters pay but, human dignity and rights will still be valued and maintained.

That’s my dream for the ariyasaṅgha of Spaceship earth.

Can we unite in an idealistic design parameters consensus exercise?

Stop beating around the bush and get to the core, the Holo-Core design that can organise the hApp store

Make relevant the purpose of a hApp in an upward spiral

way and bond the relationships to other cyclic economies.

Holocore must have rigidity and rigor. It must focus on the biosphere as a whole, with individual currencies for each of the individual elements, that form the most important gaseous compounds or liquids in the Cyclic Atmospheric Gasses. Air has Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon and Water; Oxygen and Hydrogen.

It’s imperative that an Oxygen economy takes off in these days of space exploration and dwindling tree cover.

Most effects are complicated and unless geographic perspectives aren’t seen, meteorology understood and species previously seen, known; all is lost

For instance photochemical smog, a byproduct of incomplete internal combustion engine emissions from hydro carbons adversely affects upper catchment forests, initially by wiping out amphibians that depend on mist catchment for sustenance and then by killing the keystone species of the mountains, the largest ones that catch most water from the atmosphere.

Test one.

Resolve the problem by designing a currency.

Bon Voyage


@Googolplex love the vision!

This page shows up as missing or private for me. Is it possible to share a public link? I’m curious to learn more.

@stevepurkiss I wanted to drop a note that thanks to this thread, which sent me on a multi-week bender of reading Pierre Lévy’s Becoming Virtual and Semantic Sphere, and then beginning the IEML Grammar (while implementing parts of it in Haskell), which I then commented about on a blogpost of Lévy’s, which he then replied to, that I am now in the early stages of joining his small team and donating time to the project!

Since I have some background in computer-aided theorem proving, and there are some core mathematical structures in IEML, which it seems would be good to prove & express explicitly, that is something I am quite excited about working towards.



Hi Michael,
Yes that’s because it’s on the Holoport hosting group, sorry about that, good to know you persisted!
I will paste the only three links from two chats of just four by @lucas.tauil and @DaveW ;

Loved you loving the vision :laughing: