Holonix fails on latest MacOS: Big Sur

Technical Discussion Holonix
#1

I’ve reinstalled nix since upgrading to Big Sur, which seems to work fine.

BUT when I do either:

nix-shell https://holochain.love

or

nix-shell https://github.com/holochain/holonix/archive/develop.tar.gz

I get this interesting error:

= note: ld: file not found: /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation
          clang-7: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)


error: aborting due to previous error

error: build failed
builder for '/nix/store/7x15ap9838alfr2amndafs87716pgzxz-holochain.drv' failed with exit code 101
error: build of '/nix/store/5gvc11kz7bf4m7cvd0sj9nfad31rpqgd-lair-keystore.drv', '/nix/store/7x15ap9838alfr2amndafs87716pgzxz-holochain.drv', '/nix/store/bcl2j7a69ximrfdrn7v7gwy3n15l930x-holochain.drv', '/nix/store/gnd01bfm6kbbpcasrwnrjn8hy5idbsip-holochain.drv' failed

I’ve also filed a bug in holonix repo: https://github.com/holochain/holonix/issues/211

Not sure who to tag here, but seems important, as this will be a showstopper for any devs coming in with updated macs.

Already discussed with @philipbeadle and @guillemcordoba, maybe you know who could help?

2 Likes
Using holochain on OSX Big Sur (without nix)
Getting started with a hApp
#2

Ping @steveeJ

#3

I’m following up on this on the GitHub issue.

1 Like
#4

I couldnt get nix to work on Big Sur Nix on MacOS Catalina i suggest just do without it

but then again im a #noob which apparently discludes me from being able to write Happs even tho im very knowledgable in cryptography and complex systems… with a 9.5/10 understanding of HC architecture (which is still 2D and limited imo not sure why we’re still inclined to mimic the old data structures)

you would think that new developers would be encouraged and people excited about HC supported

#5

is someone giving you a hard time about #noob or something?

what i see is 4 people helping you in the thread you linked, and other people behind the scenes endlessly reviewing documentation and environment fixes as things outside our control constantly change (new operating systems, rust versions, crate and system dependencies, CI tooling, etc.)

we have no idea how your machine is setup, you had an old version of xcode installed from over a year ago? ok… we can’t know that just from small snippets of errors in forum posts, all we can do is step through the process with you…

it’s a Hard Problem to support arbitrary development environments, but we want you to be able to work however you want, so we try to help, and I thought that we did get you up and running in the end - Nix on MacOS Catalina

the reason we use nix is to try and avoid local environment hysteresis without mandating virtualization - it works well for many people, we get a lot of positive feedback about it

in the case that nix doesn’t work we have docker boxes you can use and might even dust off the vagrant boxes at some point

even then we don’t mandate nix or virtualisation, we put a lot of effort (literally 1000s of hours) into avoiding things like nightly rust and system level dependencies so you can install stable rust and wasm compilation yourself and have a reasonable chance of things working without needing to go figure out libsodium or libsqlite3-dev or a specific nightly rust version (they frequently break or are missing tooling) or some tooling binary, or whatever it is…

it would be way easier to just develop and throw a chart of dependencies at you - https://github.com/monero-project/monero#dependencies - or require you run npm alongside cargo to get builds working - https://github.com/paritytech/cargo-contract/issues/215 - or whatever…

i don’t know what’s changed in Big Sur, some dependency in the operating system it seems, but we’ll figure this out together and find a fix as soon as we can

i don’t expect any software development environment to survive a major MacOS update without a period (6+ months) of identifying and fixing bugs, that’s my experience over more than a decade of development across many different programming languages and projects

5 Likes
#6

you’ve been incredibly helpful in fact!

and forgive the confusion, my reference is to more stuff outside the minor glitch I had setting up RSM, although it took multiple tries in a variety of avenues to get those responses in a timely fashion, I am very grateful you and Connor came to the rescue :slight_smile: Please :pray: send me a DM if youre willing to discuss this… because I know that everyone is heads down, but you and Paul are really the only people to engage much with me if im being candid about my experience as a whole

I’m not really trying to call anyone out in public, nor be critical, but I keep hearing feeback is welcome which hasnt been received well, and also I get sent in circles being passed between person to person who keeps brushing me off.
perhaps the problem truly is me… I give the benefit of the doubt to people… im simple, all I want is to start writing Happs and also help the HC project in all ways possible! :hugs: :heart:

#7

ok, is there some specific actionable feedback that we could incorporate to make things smoother for the next person? (other than fixing this mac os bug)

1 Like
#8

-have a way for people to engage, make them feel welcome
-updated documentation
-some type of visual walkthrough or ideally tutorial to get started
-timely assistance for coders. someone dedicated to onboarding Happ devs.
-organization within the group, or at least some type of direction for someone to go when they are offering volunteer services

I have not been given any clear instructions about how I can contribute to the community. Multiple attempts through multiple people. Sure im a new coder but extensively knowledgable about cryptography and distributed networks, plus I have many other skills beyond development, plus we have a team of experienced coders who are just new to HC. Also a large group of non-technical people who want to contribute :slight_smile:
there is no feeling of critique, just very simply that we want to help move this amazing project along :sweat_smile: :fireworks: :heart:

thank you for your diligence and interest!

#9

i recently went over hdk - Rust

@guillemcordoba is working on a gym of tutorials - https://holochain-gym.github.io/

@pauldaoust provides a lot of updates and documentation generally

@steveeJ updated the holonix documentation recently https://developer.holochain.org/docs/install/

@bear regularly organises events for all skill levels

@philipbeadle maintains visual editing tools Build it! Hack with Phil Live AMA Ep 8 [Powered by Holochain] - YouTube

@Connoropolous is often lurking in the forum and generally being helpful

elemental chat is a public and actively developed zome on the new infrastructure - GitHub - holochain/elemental-chat: A chat DNA for Holochain RSM

respectfully though “have a way for people to engage” is neither specific nor actionable - i’m engaging with you right now, there are many github repositories and projects in active development from many teams

it sounds like you want a new and different way for people to engage, but i have to guess what that might be :sweat_smile:

is there something you want to try and build or an existing project that catches your eye?

it sounds to me like the onboarding experience is something you have energy for, maybe one of the above people would like a hand?

3 Likes
#10

I am very happy to discuss my experience in detail and provide constructive feedback. The main challenge is long delays in responses… from a business perspective I believe there should be someone who’s main job is to engage people. Is this not what PR is about? Also I would think that engagement would be warm. You and Paul, are definitely that!

Someone trying to help a project should not have to consistently re-ping the team to get answers. As far as docs, I completely understand it takes time, but RSM came out last fall. Additionally, myself and others have offered to assist in not only documentation, but literally anything, thus to no avail. It’s not like I try something once and give up, I’m also not the only person with these perspectives but the only one willing to speak up on the forum it seems like – despite my social anxiety and strong resistance to public communication spaces – now I am in too much heartbreak to worry about it

Specifically, what can we do to get HC launched? make Elemental strong?
A multi-currency platform? backend for a Commons engine?

How can we capitalize on the valuable human resource of time? Onboard every single person who arrives excited and then leaves due to lack of engagement?

#11

and sorry I did not know that Connor and Stevee were core / at least that I should reach out to them

bear was rude to me and people I know, do not wish to speak to him ever again

guillem is great but yes that where im getting the discouragment about being new… i think he’s overworked, or maybe like me not that social or clear with communication, its really not that big of deal other than should we not have a plan for new developers? I would rather have someone who isnt biased by preconceived notions of the old ways of coding and architechture. Its a good idea for a business to sculpt beginners… with the right training they wont be subject to potential bad habits. in business often times are at the mercy of previous experience, where newbies can be molded. I would much rather have someone hungry, willing to work super hard, willing to experiment/fail, willing to push their comfort zone!

havent been referred to speak with Phillip, that would be awesome to chat! really fantastic work that he’s doing and low code is a big passion of mine

I was not referred to you either, David, which is unfortunate because I can see that you are the most helpful and engaging. irony would have I should have started this way… took me a long time to understand the team methodology – if there is one – are you acting as a DAO or something? why is there so much passing back and forth /run around? it seems discoherent from the surface (no judgement, merely honest feedback)

what is your role? obv tech, but what im curious what ways we can work together

yes the main goal is to start writing Happs and onoard the dozens of people wanting to enhance HC, including a handful of devs

#12

FOSS is rarely coherent, open source is diffuse and messy by nature - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar

open source development is sadly often not efficient or welcoming, I’m saying this as someone who’s entire career has been in and around open source in some way, with easily 10 000+ hours of unpaid, unmanaged, often actively discouraged work clocked across several ecosystems, notably Drupal, then clojure(script) and now crypto

nobody wants it to be shitty, or to be rude, or short, or overworked… on the whole everyone generally wants a good experience for themselves and others, FOSS contributors are some of the most idealistic, motivated, optimistic people i’ve met, and most large open source projects are desperate for a smoother learning curve and the next generation of participants to find their way - it’s the same desires and tensions here as everywhere else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXgbV7jB_Bc from around 41:00 feels relevant to me here - specifically the idea of the “ambiguous collective”

so let’s define who “we” is when you say “we should…”

what I hear when you say “there should be a dedicated person onboarding new people” I hear “I am volunteering to onboard new people every day for the next 2-3 years”

what I hear when you say “we should have a plan for new developers” I hear “I am going to make, execute and promote a plan for new developers”

this is how i contextualize my interactions with all the people listed above, and many others i didn’t list out by name, it’s the only way I know that open source can possibly work over the long haul - the conversation always starts at “I am willing/going to do this”

when you say “are you acting as a DAO” it sounds more like you’re saying “I want someone else to do (or pay for) these things” - the short answer to which is no, “they” probably won’t, even if “we” all agree it would be great for those things to exist/happen

7 Likes
#13

( :wave: hi folks. as David says, I’m often lurking in the forums, and occasionally helpful, when I see something clear that someone is struggling with that I have an easy to offer answer to. To clarify tho, I’m not core team, tho I was at some point. I am working on a couple of serious Holochain applications via a design/dev studio I cofounded, sprillow.com, which is why I stay in the loop with Holochain and add back where I can)

Having been on the core team, I know they work very hard and very dedicated, and get spread too thinly. Having said that, I sympathize greatly with developers trying to pick up Holochain and contribute. There are soooo many barriers. The dividedness of what documentation that does exist seems primary. I think it is not that it doesn’t exist, but is disorganized, and having no clear way to understand what is where, and who to try to engage with where. The project feels more immature from the outside than it is, technically speaking, due to a seeming disorder/chaos. The lack of a reliable changelog that cuts across the Holochain tech stack is very high among the adoption issues.

4 Likes
#14

I’ve just posted my non-Big Sur comment on that as hitting similar issues but with Catalina which may or may not be related:

#15

yeah @Connoropolous probably fair, even when i’m making documentation that i feel really would be useful i’m often not exactly sure where to put it so that it reaches the intended audience

i ended up dumping most of what i’ve done on crates.io but i don’t think that’s very obvious if you’re not rust-native (although if you work with rust a lot i think it makes sense)

1 Like
#16

Just as a comparison to your issue, I have a Mac Mini running Big Sur and was able to get everything installed correctly, including Holonix.

Thanks.

3 Likes
#17

Thanks @jaclynchorton! Good info. Did your Mac mini come with big sur installed, or did you upgrade from Catalina, or from another OS?

The confirmed cases I’ve heard of are all upgrades from Catalina to Big Sur.

1 Like
#18

No, I upgraded it from Catalina.

3 Likes
#19

I’m a bit late here but - wow - that is such a great post. THANK YOU.

1 Like
#20

He’s the God! Haha! Along with Arthur; he fits that profile like hell! Haha!