Is any planning on creating a Holo Art Gallery?
One where artist can post their own work maybe?
Or one where the work is curated by ???
One where the art is organised or not according to the ‘catagories’ chosen.|
One with occasional auctions, summer shows, one man shows, one woman shows, one trans shows – etc. etc. etc.
What constiutes ‘art’ for the Holo community?
I think there’s a really great opportunity here due to the agent-centric nature of Holochain and I have a feeling it might be worth having a think about how it could leverage all the hype there is with NFTs at the moment. Someone was asking about that the other day and had a response:
As with any product or service, a sustainable one starts with a paying customer whether that’s an investor or an end user or a client etc. so who is your “ideal client/avatar”? Your initial questions point to yourself - questions like “One where artist can post their own work maybe?” well as an agent-centric network that is kinda the thing.
So what do you need to get started? Junto are starting to create communities on their system, could it start as a sub-community of that? I am just thinking off the top of my head as to what’s out there already that can be leveraged, and with any successful project it’s the community that keeps it going, you can always build stuff later as needed.
That’s my Sunday rambling on the subject, thanks for posting!
So the way I’ve always thought about thing like this in Holochain but haven’t written them down so using this opportunity as it will sanity-check them is that as an artist, I would store my art and there would be various ‘views’ into it, and I could set rules as to those connections.
The ‘galleries’ wouldn’t have any art per se, just be the creator of the view.
In workable reality I guess a way to kick this off would be some kind of hGallery creator where anyone who wants to create a gallery can go and create one through a UI and extend through an API.
Or I might be just crazy talking, but that’s how I saw the ‘future’.
Paying customer?
Uuuumm I would suppose Holofule would be used to pay for the ‘wall space’ as each piece of art has to be hosted on a Holoport.
And I suppose ‘commission’ on sales could pay for ongoing site development. Someone has to code.
Artists ‘sponsors’ could pay their favourite artists to create more work and prevent them from starving in their attics.
And every transaction also pays a small percentage to the hole in the middle of holo.
Of course then we need to ask ourselves - does the worrld need it?
Not sure if the ‘gallery’ is made of rooms per artist or spaces in the room where artists work live on the walls next to each other.
Yes, that’s the point of my questioning re a business starts with a paying customer, not a product or service.
So it sounds like you would like there to be, as there will of course be, galleries on Holochain and they serve a few functions.
We have the famous quotes of ‘starving artists’, and mechanisms from the current economy, such as ‘sponsors’ and ‘commissions’. And in fact Gallery itself as that is a creation in the 3D world that people have copied online.
What hasn’t been discussed is potential new methods of satisfying the needs of both the artist and the consumer of the art that could be resolved in innovative ways using agent-centricity that is the USP of Holochain.
Whilst NFTs are all the rage it seems as a way to track and measure value, what I don’t see yet is how could art be different in the Holoverse/holosphere/whatever we term it.
Which is why I suggested the above method of approach - creating a hGallery creator to make it easy for people to create their own gallery which may have their favourite artists in, or cover a particular topic, and have some kind of negotiating interface in between where you can set the price/commission you want for your art being part of gallery for gallery creator X.
I think that, which is why I posted it, but I do think there could be new and amazing things done leveraging agent-centricity, perhaps it could be a great way to communicate to a wider audience as to the importance of agent-centricity if there were some major piece that focused on it and was only possible using the tech.
What is Art in a holographic technological society? What values of Holochain could be highlighted?
My brain never stops lol. Need to find this basically:
What is art indeed.
Nice graphic suddenly produced from your back pocket there.
So how would the UI work? I guess it has an upload function plus a text description - what else?
Your API ? What kind of space woulg it create? And when one space has been created with text and image would the next space follow suit - once a new image and text has been added?
Then how would the result of many or few uploads look?
I did start one for myself some years back to using some bootstrap gallery html code - http://www.laslett.info/art/gallery/ but is this what we are taliking about or something else?
It is easy to specify an “Art Gallery” in the sense of what exists today, what I am talking about is trying to get a little deeper into the reasons why you ask in order to take your mind out of the “present” confines of both what art is and what a “website” and a “gallery” and “commission” etc. - this language restricts imagination and communication.
What I’m looking for is the reason why - if “money” then what is that money for? “gallery” is quite a big wide area, perhaps there’s a “niche” you want to focus on, hence why I posted the Ikigai.
It’s super-simple to code something, that’s not the problem. The problem is working out the “why”. I should create some kind of video woo-woo training on this lol.
Think outside the blocks 
Yes I’m not sure how outside the conventions - although ‘art’ should have no conventions - one could work.
Art is for art sake and money for gods sake. Is I think the way it goes.
And I’m not sure where the ‘community’ is on ‘the marketplace’ at the moment. I have read some of your long thread on ‘money’ but not so far a long thread on ‘trade’. Trade of course being a bit ‘below stairs’ is often not talked about. But then by that token niether would money be spoken about in polite society.
Art however is quite accepatable.
…and that is why this conversation is interesting to me!
I see an opportunity to leverage agent-centricity, raising the awareness and understanding of Holochain.
It will do that if it is successful in solving a problem in an unique way. It would also do that if it were a massive flop after a massive investment, however I’d prefer the former
So the reason this conversation interests me is because you stated you have a requirement by posting this forum post and I am doing a kind of agile 5D requirements gathering process on the fly to see if we can extract the real reasons why you want an art gallery.
Sure, we can build an art gallery no problem, and I am sure there will be many, because it is a ‘problem’ that has already been solved.
But I am not here to solve problems that have already been solved lol, I am here to do far more interesting stuff with code, which is my art. The word techni has roots in art.
As for the observer principle, indeed, that is why I am trying to encourage you to state your wants, not use general words like ‘commission’ but the underlying reason behind why you want that thing - a bit like the “5 why’s” questioning. Also you keep mentioning the “community’s” view on marketplaces, I am not sure why you are waiting/wanting such a thing, focus on co-creating what you want and if something proves an issue in the future it can be given appropriate energy then, everyone here is marketing something or other in a way so I reckon it’s okay.
So, this I see is why I am questioning yourself as I am, because if a business starts with a paying customer and we figure out what you would pay for and successfully get you to pay something then we have a business. Not necessarily a viable one, so that would be good too.
Now you’re probably thinking “WTF” however if you had a piece of art and I said I had a buyer for that piece of Art, and they want to buy it today, and I’ll take 10% and the price is something you like, then you’d pay the 10%, right? If not then let me know why, as I’ve never had a problem before giving people clients they like. Admittedly in the field of computing not specifically art, although I was involved in the National Theatre project until the agency that hired me didn’t call me back because I actually consulted the client on the problem they had as opposed to push the agency’s proprietary product lol but that’s another story…
Hi Steve,
It’s a good question. I spend a lot of time right now selling - for my sins I am the UK’s Mr 10% in the beekeeping world - see - www.honeybeesforsale.co.uk It’s a niche market that the www has made viable and over the last fifteen years I have made my own. I also have www.honeyforsale.co.uk
Wow, cool! Yes, bees have certainly “raised their profile” of late considering how apparently f*cked we are all going to be soon (that’s the second time I’ve had to resist typing bee in this sentence lol).
Is this not an area you want to develop? Looks like you have the experience and a community there that could be developed, I guess it depends if it fits into your ‘Ikigai’ fully - from what I see so far there would definitely need to be(!) some crossover with art.
That’s what I’m trying to do here with Holochain - for my sins I was named as one of the most influential people in Open Source, that was ten years ago around about the same time I built the back-end of Books for Keeps children’s book review website. They were the first people to ever star rate children’s books and there was a big furore at the time but then they became the place where if you didn’t get reviewed by them then it was bad. The site is still used a lot mostly by teachers but also parents. It took me months to clean up all their data which had been manually entered for years by one guy - things like you’d have the authors as “steve andsarah blundell” so I’d have to go through the database a thousand times dealing with each anomaly at a time. The result was worth it though as you can click on an author or an artist and see which books they’ve been involved in and what role they played in it.
I had the idea at the time it could grow into a collaborative book-making online space as every author, illustrator etc. had their own account linked to the books and articles etc. they’d been involved in but I just couldn’t get buy-in from the quite conservative board that were and are operating it. They didn’t see the opportunities I did (and still do), but I am learning about different peoples frequencies and some people (“steel/how” energy) need to see the actual thing to believe and understand, they’re more the numbers people, and there’s people like me who have their head in the sky with ideas (dynamo/what) and like connecting with people (blaze/who). Then there’s the people who are good at timing - they have their ear to the ground, like the ebay seller who sells vintage car models or perhaps bees… they’re tempo/when energy - Traders like that ebay seller. Anyway point is if you’re aligned with your frequency then I’d highly suggest sticking with that and collaborating with ones that will support that, so if your own business and you are a trader that would be a ‘lord’ energy first, someone who takes existing assets and makes the most out of them, then after that it would be a star energy, that’s my profile, people who don’t create, they promote. So if you notice I’ve been rambling on about a thousand different things in this thread as if I’m trying to extract what (lol I am “what fm” as a dynamo!) it is exactly you want me (as I’m the one reading it) to promote. Hah I love this sh*t!
So, I guess my next question is a) what about the bees? Is this your beesnees? Or are you looking to change because something is missing from your Ikigai? and b) do you have someone else who helps you with the business in terms of that ‘lord’ profile?
If you’re looking to be no.2 in someone else’s business then you would be looking to a ‘Supporter’ profile, you can usually tell who they are because they’re basically supporting all the time. I do that a little as it’s one of my ‘wings’. They know ‘who’. And if you’re looking to be a no.3 in someone else’s business (3 is the minimum to get stable) then you’d be looking to a Star profile like me who’s playing no.2 to a mechanic profile… hah ah ok so that’s why I’m rambling on about this, because the mechanic profile (mix of Steel and Dynamo energies) creates a better system. They see systems and they create the “what” from the knowing of the “how” as they sit between Lord and Creator profile, and that sounds highly like Art, or his co-creator whom I don’t know so can’t guess.
Wow, such rambles. So yes, I guess this conversation fits because we are both trying to help ourselves otherwise we wouldn’t be bothering, and we want to help the Holochain project too, apologies if this rant is confusing, there’s methods in my madness…
Oh and before I saw your reply I was making a list of influences I have had recently like today on art and how Holochain and the agent-centric nature of it could be expressed within the world of ‘art’. So I’ll continue with that…
Saw this amazing live feed from Iceland volcano:
…and this amazing drone footage sweeping right over the top of it:
https://www.facebook.com/steinbekk/posts/10224917280624476
and this amazing 3D Holochain art:
https://twitter.com/TyeRish
…and this article about realtime collaboration on Holochain:
Decentralized Next-level Collaboration Apps with Syn
So all things are making me think that what Holochain/Holo is opening up is perhaps a new market in collaborative Art. I think that’s why this conversation interested me because of the lack of awareness of Holochain and the forthcoming blockchain BS. One way of massively raising awareness (remember my profile is shining the light on others, although I do have a tendency to think my creations are good so another reason I’m trying not to create anything here just promote, although like the estate agent, they still ‘create’ the estate agency, they don’t create the housing market or the houses etc. another example Oprah. anyways… back to the story…) one way of massively raising awareness is through art. It’s the ‘Purple Cow’ as Seth Godin calls it. But now I think about it and as I am typing it I realise that is my trying to create something, so let’s go back to shining light on others… this bee thing, for example, if that were turned into an agent-centric success and we saved the bees then that would also solve the awareness problem and the bee problem, and that would be(!) a Good Thing.
In the IoT world I see things like devices to measure stuff, video stuff etc. being useful in your bee world, and that’s where the agent-centric world would excel.
My particular interest is also in Collective Intelligence (yeah Steve why not just drop in another huge area here), in particular a new meta language called IEML - Information Economy Meta Language, being developed by Pierre Levy. I discovered it when I was in Toronto back in 2005 and wandering around a second hand book shop I saw this book “Becoming Virtual” and thought “well, if there was ever a book with my name on it…” and it was a huge mind-expanding read, where Pierre talks about the virtual not being the opposite of the real but the potential. It is all there, just needs “observing” lol. Anyway he’s now written a language which is the next level of the net so would work really well with Holochain, and after years of trying to understand how best to propagate IEML I realised it would probably be through IoT so you have a device saying “it’s raining here”, or “it’s X temperature” etc. providing the facts in IEML so you can calculate meanings from that. Perhaps that would be an awesome application for the bee world, so from knowing this particular data we can extract certain meanings from it.
Ah, yes, I met this guy at Chelmsford software meetup who was doing some project with bees, must admit he annoyed me a little but you can’t get on with everyone right lol -
The research project will hopefully help bees pollinate plants.
Mathematical science is being applied to find the best positions for beehives to optimise pollination through a partnership between the University of Essex and Andrew Lewis, from Chelmsford-based Simul Systems Ltd.
Anyway, here’s a couple of IEML graphics and booksforkeeps screenshots to make this post pretty
IEML is super-amazing, imagine a world where you can express anything and it is computable and outputtable in any spoken language. It means we can create our own languages, our own ‘symbols’, so it’s not just the Nikes of this world who can enjoy their power. We can level the playing field for everyone.
Books for Keeps are doing a fundraiser for the revamping of their website - of course it’s not broken in 12 years cos I built it lol. But it’s also not that simple to use either, that’s because when I left it they were supposed to be working with a front-end developer to design it, I just switched rounded corners on - even the ‘view/rearrange’ tab is there which is a dev-only thing. Oh well, one can but try. The guy who founded it is retired and quite upset too that the data might be lost - there’s no way they’re going to migrate all that and design new for the 10k budget. I ended up moving from my lovely 2-bed seafront flat in Brighton to a small pokey bedsit because I totally underquoted them but promised I’d do what I said I did, that was in my early days of business. Now I seem to just give it all away for free lol. On that note…
I do have a domain name that I have been thinking of developing - www.ukbeekeepers.co.uk that could tie in with my facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/ukbeekeepers
My buybees Google group is slowly growing too as I add members that several times a day at this time of the year. (3268 members at the moment)
I am keen to get my sites onto my Holoport and to end the re seller agreement I have with Fasthosts - but patience is the order of the day with all things Holo at the moment.
Impressive acheivment with Books for Keeps
13.4k members - wow! Well sounds like you’ve got something special there, why not grow what you know and leverage success from that to explore your art interests and other stuff that isn’t creating funds yet? I think sometimes it is hard to separate business life and personal life when you’re kinda both. I’m starting to get a bit better, takes a lot of not taking things personally IMHO cos the more you do the more sh*t people throw at you lol.
There’s a fabulous group on Facebook “The Connection HUB”. It’s for speakers, authors and coaches but the information is much wider than that. Each Tuesday for the last three years they’ve done a live training session - latest is on growing an engaged Facebook group - having only quickly looked at your group I don’t know what you do but could be a good watch to get some ideas.
Then I’d have a think about what works and what doesn’t work, sounds like you have a lot of things spread out but 13.4k is amazing, you can totally build a business machine out of that, and I wouldn’t worry too much about the Holochain side for a while as not only do these things take time to develop and build, but to take time away from something that obviously works would give you less in the future for your art and holoplay lol.
Anyway, that’s my 2p, more than happy to help rant on about hBees or whatever, perhaps make a new thread about that to get the ball rolling on the bee holochain thing, but as above, I wouldn’t mention anything in the group or other places yet, focus on turning that into a smooth running thing that can be managed by your team so you can get back more time!
thanks! I have been thinking about how the whole children’s book thing could work in agent-centricity but my focus right now is on cashflow and getting that up and running again after a period of illness I’m almost recovered from lol!
Enjoyed our chats, love how it started off as Gallery and ended up with Bees!
I thing will be a great idea to create a Holo Art Gallery. I am a poet and a writer and I can bring some of my work.
Cosm!n
Hi Cosmin,
Yes I hope there will be one someday. Once enough of the pieces have fallen into place I hope someone will take it on as a project.
Patrick
