Shiro - coordination for local food communities

He @kamal,

Yes I am sure that there is a lot of overlap. Unfortunately I have an online course at that time.

Maybe I can join at a later stage, I would love to keep track with how you are proceeding with this. Have you tinkered with the holoREA codebase yet?

Thanks Viktor, I’ll record the session and post on our BASYN thread. HApp Idea for Regenerative Circular Bio-Economies (Pilot)

And I’m not a developer so I haven’t gotten into the code, but I believe pospi and lynn will be on the call, so perhaps they can help us think about how we can collaborate.

Are you building with holoREA’s codebase?

Looking forward to collaborating in the future.



Cool, looking forward to seeing where things go!

No, we haven’t. I’ve just watched Pospi go through the code. Our super simple hack a year ago for a logistics thing was not done with REA.

yes, me too, looking forward to what is emerging!


Hi @ViktorZaunders, just catching back up on Shiro. Very cool, love the ideas of building simple buying clubs into whole ecosystems of local food coordination. :heart:

What is the current status? And are some of these groups you know interested in something like this?

(I do know that our local buying club could use better software, especially when it comes to local farmers, since my job was loading produce into the catalog. And way more important, our local area could really use something to coordinate food production and consumption. I don’t know if we could organize that, but if we could it would be really helpful…)


Thanks for driving in @lynnfoster!

Current status is coming back into designing and modularizing it in order to figure out where to start.

What we have been focusing on the last 6months here in Sweden (@kristofer, me & another collaborator not on the forum) is that we have gotten some grant funding to run an information spreading project working with buyer’s clubs and kooperatively run stores in Sweden.

In the project we are actively networking existing organizations, helping to elicit best practices and learnings, hosting collaboration spaces. We are also creating a handbook through the learning process on how to start more of these organizations.

@kristofer just created this map around the orgs we are in communication with:

Our experience in this project is that there is a general need and openness for support software, especially around how to more simply connect and include local producers.

We did this as a way to validate our ideas around what was needed and in order to create the network of orgs that would be recipients/co-creators of the systems.

I think we are leaning towards step one of Shiro implementation being creating an open inventory system, so that we can start flows of goods and include more parts from there on.

I would love to do a process, similar to the one Kamal is doing with BASYN, where we map out some initial flows using the Valueflows and REA vocab.


I’m somewhat skeptical about this. Farmers and retailers don’t know much about technologies. Even a former programmer like me would have difficulty with managing this system.

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Sure we can do that. How would you like to proceed? Besides doc and various videos from Holo-REA, there is a doc in progress to try to give some guidance on initial mapping of value flows. Olive Oil Flows - Google Docs (sorry for google doc!)

Or we can do a video call.

P.S. Will your software be open source? :slight_smile:


After the call with Kamal I will try to isolate a flow that is useful as a starting point for us and model it. I’m sure a video call would be useful at that point, but I think it is good for me to give it a go first!

Yes! We want to make it all open source :slight_smile:


Skepticism is good:

From that article:

“In the context of collaboration, I’m fantastic at reviewing, seeing vulnerabilities and threats. Historically, I’ve also generated a lot of pushback for quashing fledgling ideas, or ‘always seeing the negative’.”


“in a visioning session I deploy the Black Hat (critical thinking), because it’s a strength of mine. Meanwhile, others in the team are wearing the Green Hat (generative, exploratory thinking). The combination feels bad, because most people know that things being suggested aren’t perfect — that’s not the point of the exercise at this point — but I’m engaging by breaking other peoples ideas while bringing nothing new.”

One more quote, which embodies the question I want to ask you:

"“In what ways is this [the idea for Shiro] falling short of our desired values?”"

and more broadly:

What experiences are you drawing on in your statement? Are there stories you could share that we could benefit from? What do the holes you see look like? If you have any, what alternatives or improvements can you imagine?

I was envisioning an application that any experienced linux user can easily install and deploy.
For regular computer users, it should come in the form of a windows installer or a single windows executable.

I browsed holochain repositories and was disoriented by lack of organization. I’m accustomed to install applications from a linux repository.

For example, I tried to install h-wiki from, but I was confused. I maintain a lot of packages for gentoo linux.

There need to be at least documentations that can be used by package maintainers.

Holochain is still very new to me.

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I hear you. What has helped you become proficient in writing - or supporting others in writing - organized open source documentation? Are there any questions you start out with? And what do you use as a template?

If you could, would you be able to drop a few resources you draw on in your daily workflow, or maybe talk about things that inspired you when you were a beginner, that could help some of us to write this more joy-giving documentation?

[maybe we should start a separate thread for these questions, but I definitely think it should have a spot on the forum somewhere]

From my viewpoint Holochain has attracted people who are either extremely geeky or who are extremely non-geeky (geeky = compliment, not derogatory!), and with few in the middle. I think the bridging between those two is slowly happening though. I know that I’ve heard Arthur Brock and Eric Harris-Braun say in a few of their videos that they need more documentation writers, creatives and people interested in communication and pedagogy, to break down some of the big ideas they are working on (and the effects they would have on society).

Welcome to the Forum!

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The most important part about documentation is the amount of time, interest, and will you have for it. You have to get joy from putting yourself in the shoes of regular users. The rest are secondary.


That’s a big vision which I suspect, no one Individual really wholly knows. It’s definitely multidisciplinary yet related through common datasets, locations and methodologies that link our world. We have to take an augmented reality view of these natural processes and cycles and provide the room, data and time for younger generations to work on and link up, precisely by getting the young involved in creating valid data sets out of ecology. If we do not succeed, we will have big brother’s stethoscope up our rear ends instead of our drainpipes and exhausts. What we need to enslave is inappropriate technology and not the appropriate, as far as disturbing natural cycles beyond tipping points and that’s certainly not us as a dumbed down, dull and indifferent, mule of a species, taken out of Nature and stall fed rubbish.

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Right, our vision is to enable regenerative producers to focus on producing. We would love to have a system where farmers/producers simply have a simple installable app to manage inventory of their products (details, quantities, when they are ready, etc). Other people, with other interfaces can ideally handle purchasing and logistics in the system.


Most importantly, have that food certified beyond organic, that is, poli-cultured and biodiversity friendly. Introducing the concept of indicator species with massive datasets of vulnerable species through repetitive observations. Then we can have a landscape level impact on protecting species, worldwide.

As a UX Designer I can’t agree more.

I’m interested in helping here. I’m more a UX/UI designer than a developer, so I’m definitely seeing the difficulty of the learning curve on Holochain. Plenty of places to improve. Looking forward to helping build this with you all!


More Cobuy + ValueFlows here:

P.S. @ViktorZaunders I announced Shiro and mentioned you in SSB…

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@ViktorZaunders and y’all Shiros: consider thinking of it as more general-purpose buying club infrastructure (…but after you get your local needs met). See where Leo asks

Why haven’t “buying clubs” become more common with internet?

and David replies

Starting up something like that is hard. You need to organize it, set up infrastructure, set up security etc.


Uh-oh, and then JoeyH replies,

Consumers Byline poisened the well in the 90s.

I and the internet assumes he means Consumers Buyline.

But I am confident that Shiro is not going in that direction…

Totally not going in that direction and going for lots of flexibility.

And of course food seems like a great, super useful step. But then other products are not hard to grow into. Looking forward to talking more!

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