Holochain Forum

Getting started with a hApp

I am only 20 minutes in to this latest YouTube video posted by “PDA Extraordinaire” Harry Thompson titled “The Naughty Autie in Conversation with Evaleen Whelton of AUsome Training” and as usual when I first think “oh no, that sounds boring, I don’t want to listen to an hour of someone talking about Autism training and all this BS about how to ‘fit in’ to society etc.” actually it’s pretty good and very informative and suggest having a watch of it, it’s confirming what I’m finding in that autistic people don’t have much problems when communicating with autistic people and non-autistic people similarly with non-autistic people, the problems occur mainly when the two mix, and up until now it’s always been the autistic people who “have the problem” when actually there needs to be a bit more education for the non-autistic so we can “meet in the middle”, and I’m glad the holochain team are open to this as I do fear if not then the same pattern will be repeated as before and as I saw in the Drupal community 20 years down the line it’s pretty much torn the community apart - not that if you say that to anyone they will attribute it, they will say it’s X or Y etc. anyway I digress…

In the session a great example I see being repeated in the Zooms and it’s the neurotypical need to get feedback from people whereas - and I hadn’t heard it being described before like this until today so am a little elated hence lots of typing and sharing! - that we have visual need so whilst I may be looking elsewhere like out of the window and not at the person who’s talking to me I’m actually taking the information in - if I were looking at the person I’d be overloaded with their microexpressions etc. and in the Zoom world it looks like I’m not paying attention when that’s precisely what I am doing. I felt that in a Vision board workshop I did a couple of months back when the host asked me for the second time if I was OK and I just said “yes, I’m fine, I’m ADHD, I move around a lot, get used to it!” which I was a bit surprised about but the host said “that’s no problem” I said “well you keep asking me if I’m ok so I thought it might be” and then she went “ah, I see” and all was ok from then, then it went into some kind of love-fest later for how “honest” and “authentic” I’d been for sharing that, which I can see a little here but not that much and all I have to say is well I’m just tired like @pqcdev is of this situation however trying to play the “good cop” side and make the most of my knowledge and experience of software development, startups, open source, etc. to try and take a slightly different angle in what I see as this small window of opportunity we have to change things by being that change, and if it doesn’t work then that’s fine, at least I tried - as @pqcdev says there is little else out there in the way of the tech we want so that’s why we’re here to help but the rope is only so long, or whatever the saying is lol.

So let’s keep our fingers crossed that this time it is different, this time they aren’t opening up core development to the masses for a Good Reason still and let’s do what we can to help the team move along from where they are right now, and to me that’s all about communication, so soz for the long rant but OMG if we crack this one then it’s all milk & honey eh…

Oh, and the example in the video of a green ‘stop’ sign was a revelation too - when first mentioned I thought WTF but it’s so true! Check it out here… and the image I posted below, kinda don’t like the images as it seems all autistic stuff is focused on the kids but hey, the info is great:

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haha thanks for that GIF @dellams may want to join this convo (hi its me Zeek in case you forgot my forum handle)

im exhausted trying to avoid hurting peoples feelings and being awkward in social settings

im a really nice person and truly care about others, i just come across annoyed bc i kind of mostly am due to my pace of thinking is much faster and the only way to mitigate is multi-task which appears im not paying attention sigh

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I hear your quote and I raise you this one:
“wherever you go, there you are”

I too feel the same way, but it’s pretty pointless to keep doing the same thing again and again - what got you here won’t get you there, so as I said in my previous reply I am taking a slightly different angle - I know all the problems, they aren’t going to change no matter what community you go and join, it’s up to us to change our approach not in the way we “think” but in a way that’s more productive than before.

If you’re not willing to do that then it’s fine, but if you are then listen to the clues - see where the resistance is and trust it’s being presented to you for a reason and move around it to find a different area, and if you can’t then fine, that’s up to you to choose.

Of course I may be wrong, I may be right, that’s the nature of the game!

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love that book :heart:

Im definitely open and willing! thank you for the support :hugs:

my friend and mentor Mark Wagnon sent me this

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Developing new technologies isn’t the same thing as developing more of existing tech. More isn’t always better.
As a developer wanting to work on this I really do feel your frustration. But as a developer working on a new conceptual tech I also understand how hard it is to initiate new devs into a prototype.

As for a “non-blockchain agent-centric P2P distributed network” you can try out Hedera. I think they’re already up and running.

Also, maybe let me know what’s your skill see it and what you’re looking to do. Maybe I initiate a volunteer :wink:


LOL that’s what they all say :wink: Open is better than closed, but I’m happy to state that without discussing because it’s not my project so I can only state my views and if I don’t like it then I can always go elsewhere. It’s not about more, closed is always about absolute control and even one little bit closed can be the cause of corruption, loss of trust, and so on. I have read previously why it is being developed as it is and understand, still don’t agree but am not the one doing it so going with the flow, for the mo!

@pqcdev sounds like a super opportunity here!

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Always! if possible…

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ROFLMAO it’s always possible to make the code open. You don’t have to listen to anyone’s comments on it and I’ve seen some amazing things happen when people empower the world to contribute by having the code available. You simply can’t guess who is out there and what they could do, by keeping it closed you are restricting possibilities and as I said that is fine, it wouldn’t be my choice to limit but it’s not my choice in this instance. Open/closed is not the same as more/less. What I agree with when I read the reasons were the business reasons, it is a delicate play in the current world, however IMHO there comes a time where a decision has to be made about being ‘good enough’.

I see some echos of the Drupal world in terms of “it’s ready when we say it’s ready”, and Drupal core has always been open, and in terms of tech it is also different than existing tech in many ways as you say your development is, but eventually the biz people said yeah well that’s fine but we need to know release dates and so on and the entire landscape changed, much to the good of the project and code in my opinion.

All this is a work in progress, we all have our opinions, mine is I believe all code should be open, I am more Stallman than Stallman and I gained the nickname ‘the Drupal insurgent’ and I don’t plan on changing my views anytime soon but am always happy to be proved wrong and am trying to be a Good Boy and instead of causing trouble which apparently I did (by being honest and voicing my opinion which is apparently a no-go in business) I am instead trying to share my experience and utilise my talents in a more positive and productive way. Still early days though lol!

I just spent almost 11 minutes wondering why I have a problem with someone wearing a scarf around his neck looking like a noose inside whilst recording a video. Half of that I was also thinking of the word “patients”. I still have a long way to go on the patience thing, I think there is a balance required between impatience and patience that is doable.

Hum I’m curious. Holochain RSM core code has been open for a long time (maybe 6 months now) and most of development around happs is open source at the moment as well. What are you referring to when you say things should be more open? Maybe that we lack visibility on what the core team is doing day-to-day? Just checking if we are missing something and how we could manage the information better.



Ohhhhhh, thanks for clarifying! I completely lost you on that one as well.
Yes, that’s a big no-no in my book as well! I’m not an official opinion but I’m under the impression (and hopes) that this is just an optional quick-start for the un-techie. :slight_smile:

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Oh right, so they are pretty much developing everything in the open here: https://github.com/holo-host. Although what they are not doing is maintaining good external docs and trying to take contributors right now, that’s true.


OK so I’m confused (not hard to achieve lol) - what’s @pqcdev complaining about then? If everything is open, then what is stopping anyone diving in?

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The root cause of the stress among those not in the “accepted” crowd stems from the seemingly willful abandonment of every principled understanding on how to create a healthy community.

Setting the entry into the community at having knowledge of coding languages is by nature an elite standard. Achieving diversity-of-perspectives was never an option, and massive exclusion was baked in from the beginning. For example, we brought African and Indian tech students to the last dev camp and beyond be excluded from the dev camp we were all excluded from other meetings and activities. Without any skill or intention evaluation we were excluded, only to find out there were “non-devs” allowed into the camp. Capriciously excluding people based on no standard or measured criteria is just unfair. Knowledge was weaponized and advantage given to anyone who attended the camp over me and my African and Indian peers. Connections and relationships were withheld from us while others get a better understanding of the project and its status.

The community was constructed without any reciprocity built into the system. No reputation can be earned or valued (the reward badge system in the forum is a tip of the hat to a meritocracy, however the reputation earned in the forum is meaningless and doesnt track the pursuit of the goal). The value created in the community is dumped into a blackhole–flows are not highlighted and harvested.

No community governance. “The community decided to…” is a open euphemism for the decision of a small group if not one person. I’ve been in meetings to hear a core team member say: “the real circles of influence in the community, which I can’t speak about, will have some developments soon.” I then asked why are there circles of influence in the community you can’t speak about? Which has gotten no real response to this day.

No accountability mechanism. No conflict resolution devices to settle disagreements and find common ground. Why is this important discussion happening in a forum thread? Why aren’t issues systematically resolved?!

…this is becoming a rant. if anyone has a counter argument to how the community was built and acts on the principles of good community building practices, well you seem to be a select few and that is not what I or anyone I know in the community as experienced.

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Thank you for taking the time to respond to this @kerrgreg!

I have started a new thread as we have gone way off-topic and I don’t want to be getting on the wrong side of @carolyn lol.

Seriously though, your post is insightful and I want to consider my response so please if anyone else wants to as well, head over to:

otherwise it will be hard for others to find too



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I’m no techi. But I have read this thread and can feel some frustration in it - both with the code and with the coding community.
Patience - yes as a bee keeper one learns how important it is to wait for just the right time to act. And how much ‘experienced’ bee keepers (when talking together) can seem to exclude beginners. And even belittle the efforts of those less knowledgable than themself. And that isn’t talking abour other methods or techniques.
Austic? No. Not bright enough. Les Dislic - probably.
Now I’m going to read the new thread.

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I saw “beelittle” and all I can think about now is an epic movie about the troubles of the bee keeping community and the journey of the newbie (‘newbee’ lol). I’ll get my coat… see you on the new thread, thanks for joining in!

Thank you for making a new thread. Out of 37 answers to my post only one is on the topic itself. :thinking:

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On your Link: https://holochain-gym.github.io/developers/basic/entries/
In the navigation bar the link in REQUIREMENTS > Setup is broken it leads to https://holochain-gym.github.io/developers/requirements/setup/ which has a different navigation bar where it is not possible to go back to the first link.
I was before stuck at the https://holochain-gym.github.io/developers/ page and didn’t really know what to do because I didn’t see the whole navigation bar.

I wanted to attempt the first exercise 'entries’
To check if my code is correct I checked the solution branch.

Isn’t the attribute #[hdk_extern] needed before the say_greeting function like mentioned in the https://holochain-gym.github.io/developers/basic/entries/#external-calls

Compiling of the code works fine but in the run_tests script I get an error in the npm test command.

[nix-shell:~/developer-exercises/basic/0.entries]$ CARGO_TARGET_DIR=target cargo build --release --target wasm32-unknown-unknown
   Compiling exercise v0.0.1 (/home/student/developer-exercises/basic/0.entries/zomes/exercise)
    Finished release [optimized] target(s) in 0.95s

[nix-shell:~/developer-exercises/basic/0.entries]$ ./run_tests 
Wrote bundle /home/student/developer-exercises/basic/0.entries/workdir/exercise.dna
npm WARN [email protected] No description
npm WARN [email protected] No repository field.

audited 178 packages in 1.83s

39 packages are looking for funding
  run `npm fund` for details

found 1 high severity vulnerability
  run `npm audit fix` to fix them, or `npm audit` for details

> [email protected] test /home/student/developer-exercises/basic/0.entries/tests
> TRYORAMA_LOG_LEVEL=info RUST_LOG=error RUST_BACKTRACE=1 TRYORAMA_HOLOCHAIN_PATH="holochain" ts-node src/index.ts

15:04:24 [tryorama] info: Using the following settings from environment variables:
15:04:24 [tryorama] info: {
  "adminInterfaceId": "tryorama-interface-admin",
  "appInterfaceId": "tryorama-interface-app",
  "stateDumpOnError": true,
  "zomeCallTimeoutMs": 90000,
  "conductorTimeoutMs": 125000,
  "strictConductorTimeout": false,
  "chooseFreePort": false,
  "logLevel": "info",
  "portRange": [
  "legacy": false,
  "singletonAppId": "TRYORAMA_APP",
  "holochainPath": "holochain",
  "lairPath": "lair-keystore"
TAP version 13
# say a greeting
FIXME: ignoring onJoin
15:04:24 [tryorama] info: Spawning lair for test with keystore at:  /tmp/tmp.m2I0enrr7f/tryorama/4mKAj8/keystore
Error: spawn lair-keystore ENOENT
    at Process.ChildProcess._handle.onexit (internal/child_process.js:267:19)
    at onErrorNT (internal/child_process.js:469:16)
    at processTicksAndRejections (internal/process/task_queues.js:84:21)
npm ERR! Test failed.  See above for more details.