Holochain Forum

Growing a healthy Holochain community

I forgot to mention the main point here, the reciprocity I get is free awesome technology. I still can’t get over the fact I can download this stuff and build whatever I want with it.

My incentive is I get to live the life I choose to live. If anything, a point-based reality would do the opposite, I’d forever be Pacman…!

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I have been wondering if anyone is planning on building an art gallery?

You’d probably get a better response creating a new topic for this one I feel @Pathecat

…here’s a good place to post I reckon:

https://forum.holochain.org/c/general/app-ideas/77

How do you envisage a model that would foster a healthy Holochain community?

Lisa Welchman gave a keynote on Governance at the 2013 DrupalCon Prague and detailed a very important point about communities and how as they grow there is a point where they turn from being organic into being fixed, and what usually happens is because the community don’t stand up for themselves and “lay down the law” so to speak then other entities do it for them, the opportunity is gone and all because we don’t like telling other people what to do necessarily whereas organisations and other interested parties have no problem in pushing their own agendas.

At the time Lisa said it would be awesome if the Drupal community could prove everyone wrong. They didn’t. Can we? Is it already too late and the story is as “dark” as I feel from the way you express your experiences so far? In all honesty, it probably is, but I don’t think it’s a given that it is 100% intended to be like that, it might be that another way hasn’t appeared or been created yet. This is our/your/everyone’s chance now, it sure ain’t gonna happen automatically.

We have to learn how to collaborate more on both the code and the business side of things, people have been raised into a competitive environment and a service-to-self world whereas the future is in service-to-others. Not all over the world, for sure, that’s one thing I learned in my travels that once I’m out of the UK and especially in places across Europe there’s a lot more people collaborating.

Lisa’s keynote was in 2013, ten years after I first started using Drupal and right up until I finally quit trying at the end of last year I kept being told they didn’t want to be a member of my business network. They never complained when I brought them profitable projects though.

Even the councils in the UK are starting to collaborate, we were holding meetings about that ten years ago and they weren’t listening to our efforts back then but nice to see they’re finally sharing code. Bit late IMHO though. Still proud I got Brighton Council off Coldfusion onto Drupal though lol!

So, what do you, or anyone else reading this, see as a way forward - there’s no harm in posting ideas and dreams here. In the Drupal world you have the Drupal Association, for which back in 2012 I was the first ever community-elected Director of, and IMHO it’s a top-down structure that in some ways helps - big corporations mostly, but also people tend to expect way too much of it, which is why I always wanted to build a Virtual Enterprise Network (a book by Ken Thompson, his work like Bioteams is based similarly on how nature works like the holochain project is). I feel similar will emerge here, and with the Holo-REA project I believe it will be different and far more effective, but it will take time and grow naturally as opposed to saying “we need governance model X”. But that’s just my 2p.

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As far as I know it’s a private company who are creating a hosting service which in turn helps to fund a purely code project run by a few mates and they’re giving the code away for free. Maybe I am missing something but that’s a pretty cool thing to do for the world and the advancement of the human race. All I can think is if you think there’s something missing, well here’s the forums, you are as you have done, as able as I am to voice your opinion, suggest ideas and solutions and be part of what you see.

As above, if you believe it’s a problem then post a solution. And keep on posting until either a) you decide the project is not for you, or b) you become part of co-creating what you see as from what I see there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with everything you say, it just hasn’t been done yet for one reason or another.

Why not? It’s happening because I brought up a topic and it triggered you into responding, and we’re developing it - that surely is the definition of growing a healthy Holochain community?!

Drupal has 20 years experience of building systems for issues, there’s currently 99,918 issues for Drupal Core. That’s not to mention the few thousand modules, themes, and so on. This is not a unique issue. Again I say dive in, suggest a way forward. Propose a system for a problem you see, and if the response is “naff off we don’t want your crazy talk of all this stuff” then for sure, complain, but at the moment I still haven’t seen much more than a crappy experience at an event and a current view of a community where you’re still around and interacting with after this crappy event and obviously with some knowledge and expertise and passion in these areas, so all I can suggest is keep on trying, create some posts with some actionable solutions, again I may be wrong and wasting my time, but I’m choosing like you to be here, so with that, it’s now 3.20am and I think I’m gonna go try get some kip, thanks for your post, it’s a step forward, we’re opening up discussions and even if it’s a little “loud” then so be it, there’s obviously issues that need addressing and ignoring them isn’t going to make them disappear, the only thing that will disappear will be the community.


I agree it is a cool project, however being “cool” doesn’t inoculate you from acting according to international business norms. I’ve attempted to solve my issues at the lowest levels possible and outside of written format because I’m a fan of the project.

Before being cut out of the Dev Camp and all other “open” meetings, I was told “As a white woman from a predominantly white organization, to you a white man; I’m asking you not to speak about Holochain in your African projects, we dont want you as the face of Holochain in Africa.” Mind you this took place during the zeitgeist of the race protests of last year.

Flags should be raised any time someone is talking about their skin color or ethnic make up in a professional setting.

Upon reporting this to what “higher ups,” I was told the team doesnt not agree with “white saviors,” and no foul was noted. So, you can preach how cool the project is till you’re blue in the face, but as long as skin color plays part of “unofficial policy” then I can’t follow you down your logic that fair play runs this community.

I’ve brought investors to this community that were blown off…all the while witnessing my “peers” get special access and attention. I’ve asked for investor support in the forum to deaf ears, I’ve reached out to core team members for backing with investors and was told “anyone investing in a company with a business plan based on a product that doesnt exist is stupid.” I’m not sure Sid’s investors are dismissed in such as way.

If I’m on the “outside,” then that is evidence there is an “inside.”

So, here I am up at 2am triggered again because I know my skin color and background put me at a disadvantage in this community that I can’t overcome. I have to operate with less information than my peers and have to overcome more obstacles than those who the team does agree with their skin color and where they work.

If past behavior is truly the best indicator of future behavior, raising this issue will only serve to further isolate me. Even less engagement, no chance at being invited to the “cool kids” club.

I don’t think I said that, what I have been saying is it is what it is and we are fully aware of the fact we are on the outside and that there is an inside.

I agree there seems to be some answers needed for what you say has gone on, I am not sure how forthcoming they will be though.

It does make me wonder why you’re still sticking around though - if they did to me what you say they’ve done to you I’d be half way to Timbuktu by now…

Im still around because this isn’t a hobby–I have real communities that can’t manage waste, pay high health and wealth costs to have electricity, and can benefit from this tech.

Further, I’m was an early user of Palantir…which is a data-centric version of Holo-REA. My years of participating and building automated processes in that software gives me a vision of how apps will “evolve” over being developed from afar. The best hApps will come from intimate knowledge of the tools capabilities and the specific on the problem on the ground. Palantir developers would sit next to us in Afghanistan and the pentagon to automate our analysis process. Useful tools could never be generated from the HQ building and pushed to the frontlines. I dont see many people in the community that understand what REA is doing, much less have years experience working with a software that measures relationships. Understanding the value flows in such a system is what makes translating Game A investment dollars difficult into Game B terms.

Prioritizing the poor in tech was a bad strategy, this industry is notoriously centered upon solving their own problems. As a social scientist I sit back and reflect on how bad of an idea it was to present people of color to rural, high-altitude tech Americans…those are demographic hurtles I now see are too difficult to overcome.

Because the community is in direct competition with itself over limited resources of money and knowledge–none of the “woke” people that observed this all happen stood up for what was right and kept their doors open. They stand to gain from less competition in the community, which made them forget their values and follow along blindly.

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The whole of what you wrote above has been troubling me, in particular:

As someone who spent most their adult life in very multicultural areas - being the only white person on the street in East London and having to deal with the stares as people thought I was breaking into my own home lol, living in Bradford and loving learning about cooking with spices, and most recently Brighton for almost a decade where you have to be pretty out there to be noticed as ‘normal’ lol I do not and cannot comprehend what it is like where you are talking about, so I don’t know the story.

I have experienced many different cultures also through the Open Source community, and I have seen examples, like really bad examples, of things that shouldn’t go on but do, and I feel it is better to discuss these out in the open and I respect you for doing that, it’s obviously an issue but I still feel there is something a little amiss as whilst you keep referring to the race issue emotionally you state the gender issue in a factual way “she” said this, and then you added in the next sentence a “mind you”, so we have a 95% “this is really really bad” and 5% “but there is this small thing that might be a catalyst for saying this really really bad thing”.

Are you totally sure that this was meant as bad as it sounds or could it have been communicated in a really bad way at the time, or is it a general view and we do have a problem that should be addressed? Maybe I’m too much of a sucker, but I just get the feeling that this is a bad thing that happened that could’ve been handled better and perhaps some more education and closer communication in the future could help.

I know this is tough but we really are all one energy and must push through these issues that to me seem as if they need bringing to the light of day in order to show we can deal with them as a community, “inside” or “outside”.

We also have to remember that people deal with people, and if people don’t get on there’s not much you can do to change that, it’s not something that can be forced, but also not something you should hide in the background and ignore either.

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The message was clear that I was kicked out because they have strong feelings about white people working in Africa. I had her put it in an email, which she softened the tone but you can tell it was total back-peddling. However, when reporting it up the chain, they did put in written form that they dont agree with “white saviorism.”

the stereotype they maintain is known as the “Dark Continent” stereotype–the belief that African societies are not capable of multiculturalism. That Africa is a place only for black peoples–When in fact the continent is very diverse.

it was horrible when it happened and worse when I reported it and wasn’t taken seriously. What happened to believing people when they are victims of racism and exploitation? and now its in a public forum and still no response or engagement.

People of color (I’m Mexican and if you remember I brought a group of people of color to the Dev Camp) were excluded due to skin color and when it was reported no one believed those reporting and circled the wagons around those who committed the offense.

is anyone listening?

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Yes, and eagerly awaiting some kind of response from someone else, because I agree, I don’t believe this would be a good way forward and unlike you although I love the idea of the technology, I cannot and will not support such raving lunacy as it seems completely opposite to the promoted intentions of the project.

But that would probably please them, ignoring is a well-used trait.

It would be good to hear the other side of the story though, as I’m sure anyone else reading this would like to know too, perhaps @bear or @dcatki or even @artbrock would be so kind as to comment, I find this highly disturbing.

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Thanks!

In 2017 I interviewed Matt Shutte on my podcast. In the first quarter of 2018 I wrote a white paper of an energy use case using Holochain (seriously, who was writing Holochain white papers like that at that time?). My paper and efforts were ignored then and out came Red Grid–all white male team that never produced any electricity.

Why was Red Grid given special attention well after I presented my paper? Ohhh, again, their skin color matches the team and their worldview.

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I hear you, but haven’t been involved in the interactions your referencing so can’t speak for the folks who were. I’ll look into it and find out more though.

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Art I beg you to take this seriously. You are one of the smartest people on the planet and build systems based on an in-depth knowledge of the human condition…there is no way this should be of any surprise.

Below is a link to a token I minted that makes visible my value generating activities. This token highlights my learning and serves as a show-dont-tell understanding of narrative control and transparency. I will be the first to admit it is horrible content in many way–nothing in my background prepared me for daily social media. However, the opportunity of making complex information more consumable was too obvious for me not to make my best attempt. Your words needed to be read out loud, they are that important. I started with “Unenclosable Carriers” through the “Green Paper” and the “The Developers Guidebook” (It wasn’t completed at the time of my reading).

To be clear about my perspective–you shouldn’t have to “look into it” too hard. There is no data to point you to not believing my experience and you should have a mountain of personal data telling you this is a very possible outcome given your knowledge of your team.

My literal token of cooperation:

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We are taking the challenging step to ban kerrgreg and pqcdev from the forum.

Carolyn and/or I have had individual conversations with greg and pcqdev related to code of conduct issues on this forum. Unfortunately, those have not led to resolution, and there continue to be infractions. Continued conversation to reach more understanding was offered with both of them, which have been declined. The Code of Conduct for the Holochain Forum was reviewed and adopted by a group of community organizers that are all leaders here on this forum. While it’s difficult to use the admin powers of banning people, and we’ve never done it before, it’s an integral part of governance in managing shared community spaces.

This ban will not necessarily be forever. There will be mechanisms through which Greg and Pcqdev can reengage to be readmitted as participants.

These conversations are hard because as somebody with admin power, I’m afraid of being perceived as some kind of authoritarian fascist autocrat, and I know that other community admins are also hesitant to take these sorts of actions, but we have discussed the issues related to these bans for many weeks and months, and have determined that this is the right action to take to uphold our responsibility for the community.

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I’m appalled that these people have been banned from the forum. Wow. Censorship. Did anyone even look into what Greg was saying? These are serious allegations. That should be taken seriously. I’ve heard similar stories from others as well. I think it’s time we take a better look at what is going on here.

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And I’m paying attention to whether his posts get taken down or not.

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Indeed. I believe a lot of people care about the success of the project and whatever the underlying issues are, if they are not dealt with then they will get worse.

I’ve only just seen this as I thought I’d drop in on the onboarding session where I was immediately shut down - they certainly don’t like the possibility of awkward questions being asked!

Image 23-03-2021 at 15.17

If this were simply about me asking a question, that would’ve been covered when he said at the end of the session “I’m sorry I couldn’t get to answer all of your questions today”. After all, the questions are mostly being asked in the doc and the chat, and if I was waving my arms around trying to get attention to ask a question then that would be a good time to assess whether there was time to answer anything I asked.

Disappointing.

My hope is it’s just education that’s needed and a bit more communication. Sometimes to my detriment I have faith in most peoples intentions.

I know I suffer from Rejection Sensitivity Disorder and as an Autistic person I take things literally, but I can sense ‘atmosphere’ and being someone who also wants to be part of this community I want to ensure as much as I can that my time and energy is spent building something that’s going to be a force of good in the world, not further oppression. I am still undecided.

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{wonders how long before gets banned lol}

Hey ho…

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