Sovereign money and mutual credit: what about freeloaders?

Technical Discussion Concepts & Architecture
#22

Hi,
Just to clarify: I visited Sardex last Spring and everything is humming along nicely. There have been ups and downs but they are expanding nicely and have some super cool ideas for the future.
Including switching over the Holo!!!
Cheers, Ken

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#23

Pseudonym Pairs implementation is now complete, https://gist.github.com/0xAnonymous/8d93d20ac056b45e2ba2d5455cc2024b

Very simple, just 160 lines of code.

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#24

@jakob.winter good idea. perhaps combine with a logarithmic gain for recent and consistently good behavior. @pauldaoust

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#25

@CapitanSgrakkio do you agree with his stance against value theory? perhaps his opinion is limited in scoped because he is breaking it down into binary concepts of good and moral. I’m thinking that concepts such as Art’s “Wealth: A Living Systems Model” along with advances in IoT could allow the value theory to have merit. Am I missing something? or do you agree?

#26

@resilience-me would you be willing to elaborate on the tax settings? if Im understanding correctly, its up to the individual to determine rate? I guess I’m curious about the incentive structure. or does the system have an algo to set it for them? ie what would encourage people to set higher rates? im a bit confused sorry and thanks

#27

Yes I’d be very happy to. The truth is people have been pretty uninterested, so I have done other things for the past 8 years instead.

It is simple, the only rule in Resilience, the only rule, is that credit lines are conductive in proportion to the tax rate used when creating them. And that’s it. Everything else follows from that single rule. Just to emphasize that. When you ask me to elaborate on the tax settings, I have to emphasize that it is the same as elaborating on the system as a whole, since the tax setting rule, just a single rule, is the whole system.

The individual sets the rate. You can change it as you wish. Your choice at any time is inscribed in the credit lines you form.

The single rule, the “tax settings rule”, is the incentive. Higher rates means your credit lines are allocatede more of the tax flowing through the system. You are entrusted a form of government responsibility, so that you can know that the system is being operated honestly. The base incentive is of course to see all people around you raised with a social safety net, altruism. The problem with altruism is that it is exploited, this makes people not trust it, but, of course humans are very rewarded by altruistic endevours, when they actually work. We are a social species after all, eusocial even, like insects.

#28

makes sense, thanks for the clarification

#29

@pauldaoust is this feature already built? I was thinking about creating a data wiki and search engine but maybe could just add to libraries of one already exists. also, do you know where I might be able to find info on what currencies/mutual credit systems are being designed? im curious what Metacurrency will be introducing

#30

Now that you have the basic rule. Also important that you only receive “basic income” (have your credit cleared gradually) if you lack an income. Since otherwise, the single rule I mentioned means you have to propagate what you get in, out to any conductive credit lines to you. So, it is still derived from the single rule, but, easy to miss.

Another thing, if you make a payment to someone, pay tax, and they have no credit lines to them at the moment, they keep the tax. Otherwise, you could pay 100% tax at those moments, breaking the balance. This is also logical from the single rule that encodes the entire system, storing the entire system at each individual person on their own “machine”.

And what about enforcement, what if you do not pay forward the tax? Well, it is trust based. It is possible to be trust based because it actually scales socially in a way where people can find corrupt elements. So, if you have a friend who is cheating you on tax to get a tiny bonus in life, then that is between the two of you and not affecting anyone else. The system is probabilistically distributing responsibility and governance authority in the best possible way, it isn’t perfect, because humans aren’t “perfect”, we are flawed and that’s a good thing. The net result should be a good outcome, is my prediction for Resilience.

#31

So, it is guaranteed basic income, technically. But, since the control structure is so different, it has none of the drawbacks people usually associate with guaranteed BI. I also designed an ideal universal basic income system too, based on Online Pseudonym Parties. So, I’m for both, life is complex and have to respect different “ecosystems” in it on their conditions.

#32

Sorry, i don’t understand too much your question, i was away for a while.
i’m “working” in the spare time on an old “puzzle”: maybe something could be good in it, there you have my ideal vision: https://notchcircuit.wordpress.com/
it’s a mess , i know, but if you have the patience to read it along i hope you’ll find something interesting.

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#33

I’ll have a better look on the paper, but i have a big crise still on the idea of basic income, from one side i think it is “possible” only on the back of another society, the capitalist one in our case, i would really like to cut every possible laces with the capitalist’s society.
From a tabula rasa perspective, i don t see any sense in it.

#34

not sure what you mean by other society, it isn’t like there is a “capitalist” paradigm that has to be overthrown. the USA has never been capitalist, it was a constitutional republic based on bill of rights including freedom of speech and press. the whole “capitalism vs communism” story is just about division. My protocol is true p2p anyway, based on multi-hop mutual credit that is pure p2p money, with the most distributed, in terms of control and computation, redistribution mechanism possible, probably. the other approach I also coded, 15 lines of code for “carrying tax on money”, is truly centralized just like Nakamoto consensus type systems, and has other niche in society.

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#35

(Usa are capitalists, like everybody in the world, in my vision capitalism is associated with endless accumulation and the capacity of profiting by it, letting what u previously gained to“work” for u) i have to read it better! i just scrolled it, sorry.

#36

nonsense divide and conquer narrative. everybody in the world is pretty much nation-state representative democracies. that’s the control structure. the story that “everything is capitalism” is absolutely false. I’m not against things like social safety net as I obviously devoted some of my life to trying to improve those.

#37

after reading, I’d have to say that I agree with you and like what you’re getting at

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#38

It isn’t; it’s something that would have to be built into a mutual credit app. Fortunately, all it requires is access to your counterparty’s transaction history (that is, their source chain), which for most mutual credit apps would be something they’d supply when they’re proposing a transaction. Most of the stats I mentioned would simply be iterator functions on their source chain – overall average, rolling average, and all the others.

You’d think that a project that’s explicitly designed for mutual credit currencies would have more mutual credit app examples in the wild. They’re frustratingly rare though! @guillemcordoba has created some experiments at Llavors MĂștues · GitHub , although I’ve heard him say he wants to redo these based on new things he’s discovered. I’ll let him chime in about that.

We want to open-source the transactor core of HoloFuel, but I think the current priority is to get a proof-of-concept app called Elemental Chat working on Holochain and the Holo Host network so people have something to see and so we can test our network infrastructure at scale. I’m impatient to see more activity in the mutual credit space, but these things move at the pace they move at :man_shrugging:

As for Metacurrency, that feels like kind of an umbrella for the small group of people behind all these initiatives – Art, Zippy, Ferananda, et al. The real work is all happening in Holochain-land, although the Commons Engine are incubating projects who are intending to use Holochain for their currencies.

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#39

cool stuff, keep up the good work y’all. and thanks for answering my questions :slight_smile:

#40

@pauldaoust yes! Actually this next week I want to put a little effort and have the public transactor available to play with, we already have the UI from the last community currency experiment we did back in April. After having this foundational building block, next steps would be to experiment with something like demurrage, which I’m really excited about :slight_smile:

@pqcdev let me know if you’d be interested at some point in helping to build these tools, this building blocks are not really part of any currency design but infrastructure libraries, that could be used in multiple contexts/use cases.

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#41

Very happy to hear that!
Tell me please all the doubt you had while reading it, ;
i have a huge dilemma with the fact that two guys could fake transactions to raise the maximals if that is a factor for the maximals variation., i thought about a delivery recipe, and a localization check when the exchange is made directly, but this solution leaks everywhere.

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