Hey ken, so nice to see you passionate about holochain and also on the prospect to do something with sardex. Btw, is there any stats on sardex website which shows important figures like memberships, transactions vol done etc? I went to the website and check it out but the language is in italian, which i dont understand. :slight_smile:

Hi Sol,
Cheers for the kind words. By big interest is alt finance … I sincerely be the current financial system hampers human development. Mutual exchange such as Sardex is a major step forward and Holo is an ideal part of that (the decentered nature etc.)
Anyway, yes, everything is in Italian, that’s on purpose since they are locally focused. The English skill in the office are actually pretty good.
Did you have a specific question … I could go into my notes. Off the top of my head, the membership is nearing 30,000 and the volume is something like 12 million.
I should work with them to do an infographic.
Anyway, ask any questions you might have … I have pages of notes from my meeting there.
Stay safe and safe,
(where are you in the 1.0 world … I know I saw you posting on one of the Asian meet-ups … I’m in the Netherlands, educated in the US, married to a French woman hahahaha you see why I like decentered networks like Holochain :wink: )

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I believe the best approach would be to get in touch with Cyclos and see how open they are to redo Cyclos with holochain. If I remember correctly, its currently done in java so there is nothing much we can re-use codewise but the design can be reused. Also it would be interesting to ask them how they handle the scalability issue. More java servers? I’m sure @artbrock has some thoughts on this subject.

Wow @Ken, it is really nice to hear of your varied background and also keen interest in decentralised network. I am from Singapore. Have a bit of programming background. But more BD, investing focused although i tried to learn as much as possible on holochain/holo. I had organized holochain events in Singapore before. :slight_smile:

Yes, i am keen to know more about Sardex. I actually read up about them. Will think through of some quick questions and ask here again if you dont mind :wink:

thank you, that is very sound advice. I will try to follow up on it. I could literally ride my bike to the NGO that developed Cyclos, BBBBUUUUUTTTTTTT … just registered nearly a 40 degree fever. I’m not going anywhere for a while…probably just a tad of flu from overwork.
Anyway, will keep in touch.
Cheers, and bon weekend,

Thank you, Sol. I’ve only spent a few very jet lagged hours in Singapore, but I loved the mix of cultures. It was clean and safe even by Dutch standards (but better weather and food hahahahaha) My cab driver told me I was staying a slum … it reminded me of a high rent district from my time in NYC hahahaha. Anyway let’s keep in touch … lots of fun and interesting and worthwhile and profitable work can grow from this. Cheers.

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Please let me know if you ever come to Singapore! Would love to hear your experience interacting with Sardex. Cheers!

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I believe Holochain is itself a kind of replacement to Cyclos. With shared UI across happs, you could easily fork a mutual credit happ and modify it to fit your community’s needs. We just need the initial happ, and I believe the HoloFuel happ is a good starting place.

Cyclos doesn’t has a scaling problem, you can run a million or more customers on it. Holochain would be only better when you want to introduce intertrading or having a decentralised architecture in general. BTW Cyclos is a huge and complex stack it would need a lot of ressources to migrate this to holochain. And it would need a mature Holochain to run it. Much easier would be to use a modern business application stack and slowly migrate some of the business logic to holochain. As for instance in my proposal Holobiz, a hybrid framework to bootstrap the p2p economy

Thank you for your input. My comments about Cyclos and scaling come directly from the tech folks at Sardex. They’ve built and big and good project so I tend to trust them. I can’t envision a motive for inventing a problem that wasn’t there.
As far as your other points, let me read the materials you hyperlinked.

@jimays was doing stuff with Cyclos I think

Oh yea? Thank you, Josh. I will try to track him down. Cheers.

Interesting discussion about this on Twitter:

Even if the scaling claim were to be true, it would require maintaining multiple servers running java, so the benefit of holochain would be lower server costs and no server maintenance required.

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Thank you for this!

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If you look at the bottom of the Cyclos website you see the graph about their the main users. The Banking the unbanked project in Indonesia claims to have more then 2 Mio users.
The problem about mutual credit is always how to scale it fast enough. That has nothing to do about the transaction engine you use. It requires a good marketing and business concept. You can’t sell a new currency to businees. The key factors of their success was beside (the right place and time), that they sell business consulting with an integration in a network (plus mutual credit). Of course after a while the currency itself did start to become a mean of trust and a part of the identity for the people on the Island.
BTW, I work since 10 years in this field and have experience with Sardex and Cyclos.
If there are people who are really willing to go into b2b mutual credit please DM me.


This was one of the papers being discussed in the Twitter conversation:

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Ah, just wanted to post this here :))

I’m working with them to bring a pilot to the CZ, if we manage to get on board enough businesses.

There’s an ongoing discussion with Commons Engine, @guillemcordoba and @Connoropolous about a possibility of Holochain integration (in some further iteration).


Salve a tutti, sono nuovo su ed è interessante trovare la parola Sardex su Holochain, utilizzo Sardex tutti i giorni come produttore e rivenditore di Gioielli guadagno sardex da molti anni ormai, Sardex è un circuito alternativo alla moneta Euro inoltre lo scambio di sardex è 1 ad 1 ( 1 euro = 1 sardex) bisogna però aggiungere che la sua forza ha un limite. io posso vendere in sardex ma devo cercare un altro modo per consumare i sardex guadagnati come cibo, maccelleria, frutta e verdura, cambio gomme, un impresa edile per restaurare, un azienda per installazione fotovoltaico, ecc ecc… stiamo aumentando ma non tutti accettano questo circuito e molti che si ritrovano un portafogli pieno stanno bloccando l’ingresso è l’accettazione di pagamenti in sardex… ha una grande forza se tutti dentro una determinata area o regione ne fanno uso come moneta alternativa. in sostanza non trovo tutti i prodoti o servizi in vendita tramite sardex. sarebbe interessante per i rivenditori un app che funzioni inun modo sincrono sia come comunicatore sia per ricevere pagamenti sia in sardex che in cryptovaluta HOT e altre Crypto aderenti al sistema… da rivenditore vedo che la comunicazione social funziona ma manca l’aspetto vendita istantiananea e pagamento rapido, ma questa credo non sia la sezione adatta all’argomento, vi ringrazio scusate se scrivo in italiano e Buona serata a tutti :wink:


Hi Ken,

I think there is an opportunity to collaborate on this! I’m currently forming a team and lining up funding to build. Our project has a few additional proposed enhancements. More info can be found at Koru - The people’s money and financing our future - #3 by axhue.