Holochain Forum

Modularity Hackalong: Marketplace and Reputation - what's special about doing this with Agent-centricity? 🔥 🙂 🌈

Hello all

We had a great discussion last week about Marketplaces. Towards the end of the session we explored how Marketplaces could look different in Holochain. By using agent-centric reputation, we could start spinning off decentralised ‘Bazaars’ for distributed communities instead of all-encompassing-global-exchanges.

We’ll share insights from the conversations we’ve been having in the week + explore how this could evolve over the next few months.

Based on time available, we’ll also discuss updates from CRISPR, BASYN, Reputation Libraries (Sacred Capital), Loconomics and more. If there’s something you’d like to add to this list leave a reply below.

When : Thursday, Aug 20, 9am SGT/11am AEST/1am UTC/6pm PST (US: Aug 19)
Where : Zoom Room ; Calendar Invite
Who is this relevant for: anyone looking to leverage these themes. You could be a dev building in a modular fashion. Or a ‘power user’ with limited dev skills who is stitching together a community or app with basic technical tools.

Thanks, Sid.
PS: If you’d like to receive the calendar invite leave a comment below or DM me and I’ll add you to the recurring event.
PPS: More about Modularity here

@kamal @pospi @oro13 @ViktorZaunders @mhueschen @arch

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Video’s up. We had Philip showcase the new version of CRISPR, followed by a discussion on agent-centric marketplaces. Hope to follow up on these themes over the coming week.

Thanks

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Shame I missed this! Looks awesome :slightly_smiling_face: can I try this out? I’m building something similar for my .net hdk so be good to collaborate and hopefully integrate somehow? :heart::pray::slightly_smiling_face::grin:

@philipb

When’s the next one? Looks like I should be in these calls reading what’s discussed… :slightly_smiling_face:

Hey @Alban, I just watched this Hackalong. And building for REKO-rings is defenitly not new territory :slight_smile: REKO is big in Sweden now, as it grew from Finland.

About at the same time as REKO was growing in Finland and before it hit Sweden we we’re already building https://localfoodnodes.org/en. I spent about 2 years on this and it is still continuing to be built by others in the team. It is meant to work exactly as a management structure for the REKO pattern, although we didn’t really know that much about REKO as we started building it.

We’ve had massive difficulties in getting people on board, that is to say, to move things off from Facebook. One thing that could be made a little different would be removing the little donation-required thing. Anyway, it is fully open-source and it’s functionality, I think, will be a good component in local food systems, especially when modularized. The focus of REKO, which is a strength and a weakness, is everyone being at a specific place at a specific time (both producers and consumers) which I think can be very much supported by community owned spaces that can act as dropoff/pickup spaces for pre-ordered food.

There is also a browser extension that reads facebook comments of a thread in order to assemble the order list built specifically for REKO. Couldn’t find it right now.

But just in general, the Social + Economic space that @bhaugen has been pointing to in some conversations is what makes REKO come alive. That along with everyone getting pinged by facebook 289 times per day…

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Hi @ViktorZaunders , I hope you are doing great and thanks for the info.

  • Yes, not much new territory but definitely need for more successful adaptation. So many farmer/consumer apps, usually regional and very case specific. We want to make it usable by any community anywhere.
  • If anyone is interested in REKO rings, here is a proper research paper that I found very useful.
  • This is fantastic. I’m very grateful for this work!
  • How can we get in touch with someone to see how we can contribute?
  • I agree, it’s very hard to get people on board. (A group of farmers and consumers in Catalunya use whatsapp messaging to coordinate, and they think it serves them well)
  • I agree, removing the donation would be useful
  • We are looking at the code and we are very interested to get in touch with whomever is working in it.
  • Dropoff/pickup spaces could be very useful. This is the case with our local community (Costa Rica). However, some places like the dropoff/pickup, as it serves as a social space (farmers market style gathering).
  • According to the research on Reko, many farmers don’t participate because it is not worth the drive to the drop-off place. This is the reason I brought up Our-Transport (Uber like app).
  • Our Movement’s (OM) approach to modularity is strategic based on adaptability and usefulness. A simple example is how Our Transport (OT) app would support users of the farming app. In the meantime growing the network of the OT itself. One way to be seen is how this dynamic keeps wealth where it is actually generated, locally. In this case it would be much easier to add a local currency, even further supporting the ecosystem. And the thought continues with other tools. This is OM strategy to expand the commons. Sorry, I’m jumping ahead, but that is the bigger picture.
  • Nice something to make the adaptation much more fluid. Sort of allowing the current method and the new application to be used simultaneously.
  • I will look into it. I find the above research very useful. I think it makes it clear that economic incentives are primary drivers for the farmers. Not dismissing other motivations, I think that economic incentives should be strongly considered.

I’m tagging @kenf @leifriksheim and @akikoogawa7 as they are some of the collaborators in the project .

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All good and my pleasure! :slightly_smiling_face: Thank you for working in the space too!

Yes, I know Maria who’s the first author of that paper, if you have more questions I can connect you to her.

Yeah, get in touch with [email protected], he has basically written the whole thing, has had some front end / design help but all of the back is his. I can give him a heads up that you’re interested in contributing. I think it would be great, and actually not that difficult to map that over to Holochain if that is something you are intending to do. Also mapping it onto REA would be a really cool thing to. Then it could play so well with the Shiro stuff we are looking at for buyers clubs.

Yeah, this! I mean that is something that would make so many apps work in the real world. Logistics, route calculation, package optimization and all that would so nice to have built in the ecosystem. Looking at the Holo model for credit systems based on logistics (larger credit lines for prior transport service commited, different rates based on how urgent delivery is, possibility of doing delivery for free if its on my way and we’re friends) seems super interesting to me. I’d love to see this one come online!

Have you tried building on HC or are you focusing on web.2 tech prototyping right now?

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Hi @ViktorZaunders!

Thanks! I will let you know, but we will check in with David first! If someone else has anything in particular they will ask for the connection.

  • Yes, please give him a heads up! I or @leifriksheim will write to David soon.
  • I like the idea, maybe we can do the HC mapping. I guess we can’t technically do that but we can host a free hackalong in Costa Rica to do this. We built a permaculture farm to host continuous hackalongs for these kinds of projects. For the sake of clarity, if anyone is working on these projects the stay in our farm is free.
  • Yes, I’m looking forward to learning more about Shiro. I’m very much interested in putting all these tools under one “basket” versus in silos. I think we need to entertain the idea and explore how it can be done. I feel this makes them easily accessible for adaption by communities, makes them easily accessible to collaborators as well, increases visibility for what tools are missing within the ecosystem, and of course not repeating the same work. Again, a topic for later talks.
  • Yes, I look forward to seeing the Holo model. I would be so grateful if we could utilize it for other projects as well.
  • We have not done any work on HC but we have not done much work in general. Ideally we want to build on HC; however, what we want to do can be done in web 2.o as well. So I guess it all depends on the technical abilities available. For now the idea is to prototype in web 2.o; in a way that we can map to HC easily.
  • If we have both versions available, and especially if they can be interconnected through HoloREA and ValueFlows (Hi @lynnfoster and @pospi, can they? ) so as not to be either or problem, then adaptability can be easier. It’s easier to convince some communities with more familiar tech; leading them towards HC versions later.
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@sidsthalekar

I wanted to give you a couple of use cases that combine validations with economic events that have reputation implications. (This is to vary from the usual likes and claps…)

  1. Alice asks Bill to cut a replacement gear for her rotating rack pie-baking oven. She gives him some specs with tight tolerances and a due date of next Thursday.
    Bill delivers the gear on Friday and it doesn’t fit.

  2. Same intent and commitment, but Bill delivers the gear on time and it does fit.

cc @lynnfoster

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@Alban sorry for late reply. I’m not sure I know the answer from the Holochain side. I very much hope that holochain will be able to interact with other technologies some day. It would be great if holochain apps could federate with web apps server to server, like in the “fediverse”. @pospi may have some more concrete ideas there. And there are a few people working to add ValueFlows api in the fediverse, integrating social and economic networking.

In the meantime, if you write a web based economic app, if all else is equal, it wouldn’t hurt to use the same ValueFlows api between client and server as Holo-REA uses. That would provide the ability to use a specific frontend app connected to different backend apps, Holo-REA and web-based. But in general, I’m going to say that while there is a lot of hope, there are a lot of things not yet tried in this area.

I’m very much interested in putting all these tools under one “basket” versus in silos.

Nice :+1:. Another way to think about this is that the tools could talk to each other because they enable the same vocabularies and protocols. Then you don’t necessarily need the “basket”, and people can add on different tools as they like (theoretically). The concept is sometimes called “open app ecosystem”, and has been talked about for some years, but the realization is very slow.

Thanks @lynnfoster.

Sorry, my basket comment was a bit vague. I didn’t mean the basket to replace the vocabularies and protocols, I meant as an addition to ensure quicker adaptation. I’m concerned that even if these tools are interconnected, adaptation will still be a problem; and even in case of a quick adaptation, I’m not so sure it automatically translate to a better world. Another topic though, but I would like to chat about it at some point.

Yes, I see where you are going! And a good set of concerns to keep in mind, and to discuss at some point…

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@sidsthalekar
One point of those use cases is to ask if you mean “reputation” to include those kinds of material interactions, or only subjective comments, eg likes and claps?

(But that’s not the only point, I’m also interested in how those resource transfers vs specs will be validated, which might be a question for @pospi and @lynnfoster .)