Holochain Forum

Holochain for Global Cooperation

I tend to be skeptical of language like this, since I associate it with a competitive world view. Could you elaborate more on what you mean?

Also, below is an excerpt from The Dream Machine by M. Mitchell Waldrop that highlights some of what I mean. I see concepts like “game theory” and “(neoclassical) economics” to be relatively reductive concepts that don’t take the actual complexity of the world into account. This excerpt is in the context of the nuclear-arms race after WWII, but there are aspects of Norbert Wiener’s leaning into cybernetics to better model the world that I think that aligns very closely with this new, agent-centric model of computing. I think that a paradigm shift will allow us to move away from rigid ideas like game-theory, and see the world from a more human and complex vantage point.

Through the use of innovative analytical tools such as von Neumann’s game theory, went the argument—an argument that was already being embraced by strategic thinkers in the government and in newly formed think tanks such as the RAND Corporation—the nuclear-arms race could be rationalized, mathematized, reasoned about, and managed .

Wiener begged to differ. He certainly didn’t favor irrationality in human affairs; the world, he felt, had already heard entirely too much about the “triumph of the will” from Hitler and his ilk. But he did want to see this rising generation of mathematical Cold Warriors be a little less naive about the uncertainties of the world. And in this regard, von Neumann’s game theory seemed to him particularly insidious. Underlying its vaunted objectivity were built-in assumptions about the nature of human beings and human society that Wiener judged to be “an abstraction and a perversion of the facts.”

For one thing, Wiener noted, game theory presumed that the rules of the game were fixed, that competition was inevitable, that all players were perfectly ruthless, and that they would always choose the strategy that furthered their own self-interest, period. And yet, he said, while there was a depressing element of truth to that assumption, it did sometimes happen that player A genuinely cared what happened to player B—as when they were two nuclear-armed nations inhabiting the same planet, for example. Indeed, he wrote (echoing such luminaries as Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein), when war becomes a form of mutual suicide, you don’t want to win the game. You want to get out of the game.

A second problem was that game theory depicted every player as being perfectly rational and capable of foreseeing the full consequences of every possible action. To be fair, it must be said that von Neumann wasn’t alone in this assumption; it was (and remains) a standard axiom of mathematical economics. But with the possible exception of von Neumann himself, such flawless rationality and foresight eluded everyone Wiener knew. “Where knaves assemble,” he wrote in Cybernetics , “there will always be fools.” Furthermore, he maintained, in the real world it was rarely just a matter of two players’ meeting one-on-one. Society, for him, was more closely akin to what would now be called a complex adaptive system—a constantly evolving, endlessly surprising web of interacting players and overlapping feedback loops. “In the overwhelming majority of cases,” Wiener insisted, “when the number of players is large, the result is one of extreme indeterminacy and instability”.

Thanks for reviewing the information. I would suggest a shared values-driven economic approach is exactly what’s needed to advance the human condition. In fact, as the project is fully documented you will see where adherence to shared values will, in fact, create far more benefit than a competitive scheme. Constitutional cooperation is the opposite of a zero-sum game.

Jak, you really get this project. And I’m learning a lot from your posts. Also, it’s kismet that you mentioned a book titled The Dream Machine. My novel, The King of MO!, is a magical realism epic based in the Chelsea Hotel in NYC and the multiverse, where one of the protagonists, DonJon, travels the multiverse using Willaim S. Burroughs and Brion Gysin’s Dream Machine (a real thing - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamachine).

Competition is only inevitable when the rules are formulated solely for that purpose. Additionally, I repeat, 1/3 will always cooperate, 1/3 never will, and 1/3 will do what the group is doing. My experience suggests that those that will never cooperate will always throw wrenches. Therefore this project should be “selective” (not exclusive) bases on the reality of one’s emotional nature.

The following is an interesting paper that relates the work of constitutional cooperation and what is termed private constitutions. The CofC is the primary private constitution that provides the ability for small groups to simply create their own cooperation scheme and remain connected to a vast group of cooperators.


For those interested, I’m working on the outline for a proposed integration with Holochain. Based on my schedule, it will take a few more weeks to finalize. I want to keep this project on the burner, so if anyone has any specific questions about the constitution and the scheme please ask. Otherwise, I will post as soon as the next phase is completed. Thanks, DonJon.

1 Like

Just wanted to update. It’s taking a bit longer to complete than I had stated. I have been participating in the zoom meetings, reading all documentation, and reviewing other hApp projects. I won’t provide a new timeline, but the documentation is well on its way. It’s very exciting to working on this project after the last year. All the best, DonJon.


Hello, such things always take longer than anticipated and hoped for :wink: I’m curious if there is anthing half-baked that you would not be reluctant to share, please? I’m coming from GameB space and replacing competition with cooperation has been on my mind for quite a long time, in fashion of fractal DAOs (networks of networks of local self-sufficient (autarkian) communities), connected by a system facilitating communication and project play/work, something opposite to what we jokingly call “social media” today. Judging by what is described above there is amazing amount of convergence between our ideas, and I would like to know more :slight_smile: Besides, learning how to write hApps is something I’d do anyway, as a hobby, and learning while doing something useful is so much better…


Funny that you contacted me today. Because it’s the day that I intend to complete the first draft. There are just a few more short paragraphs and a read-over. It will still be the first draft and is not a technical document. The next step is to flush out a technical diagram, outline, schema, or whatever it’s called in HoloSpeak. I just read and re-read Art’s series, Unenclosable Carriers and the Future of Communication, and was absolutely blown away. I believe the one piece that will make that vision a reality is the integration of constitutional cooperation. Please email me at [email protected] and I will share it with you. Thanks loads. DonJon.

1 Like

There are no coincidences. Mail sent. Reading list updated, I’ve seen the Future of Comms before, but re-reading is in order. Thank you!

1 Like

FYI: I’m awaiting Rkzel’s feedback on the documentation and will provide it to those interested afterward.

1 Like

I’d love to take a look on the next round. I’ve also created a thread for my project "Library" (Working Title), if you were interested. It’s still relatively early, but I’m eager to see how my project can enable your own.

For sure. Will share soon. I’ve been thinking about your project and others that could integrate.

Just looking at it as a layperson, the “Intellectual Trust” of the project could run on Library, I would think.

Mentioning Xanadu is worth 10 reputation points (3D another 10, but that’s just my humble opinion). You didn’t mention Roam Research, have you looked at it? I’d be curious what you think of Roam’s approach.

Edit: I’ve read the main thread, Roam was there along with other very good sources. Great. Now I’m even more looking forward to having a meeting :slight_smile:

1 Like

Lots of amazing technology happening. It feels like a new frontier has opened and the heroes who see it over the horizon are on a daunting journey to advance human consciousness.

I was looking at Ceptr and wondering how that might interplay with the cooperation project. If constitutional cooperation is seeking to reconnect human activity in a natural communitarian structure we should use a foundational technology with the same vision. Again, I’m not coming at this as a developer or engineer, I just watched some of Ceptr’s videos and feel it’s perfect for the intuition needed in the constitutional structure.

Jakintosh, I’m happy to share the rough draft, warts and all, that Rkzel has seen as long as you understand that it’s not for prime time. Send me your email address. thks, dj.

1 Like

[email protected]

1 Like

I think Roam has opened the floodgates in terms of some “bidirectional” linking and transclusion, but that without moving to a visual (not text) format, it will be restricted to power users and the “productivity hacking” scene. My goal is to combine roam’s linking and transclusion ideas along with three dimensional visualization of knowledge graphs to make it easy for the layperson to both explore and contribute to those knowledge graphs. I also think that it’s important for it to be “multiplayer-first”, which, last I checked, Roam was not. I believe that to transition humanity to the next level, prevent extinction, and unlock the full potential of the “social superorganism”, knowledge must be completely free, easy to find and reason about, and stewarded by all.

I’m really glad there are others with this transformational mindset. Digging into Ceptr was also a very powerful moment for me; I’m excited to be on this journey with all of the minds at play in this space. I’ve also started working on compiling my thoughts into a more organized “manifesto” (for lack of a better word), around “individualism” vs “collectivism”, and the way that our understanding of the “self” has enabled the exploitative and extractive and non-cooperative ways of being that now threaten our societies, and our planet. I imagine there may be some cross-over there with your work as well.

1 Like

Wow, wonderful. Agree with all points. We are on the same path. Our work is not crossing over, it’s emerging, advancing, and interchanging in a way that will empower the world of thinkers, empaths, and cultural revolutionaries to build a new human consciousness. The time is now.

1 Like

I found the concept of “Coalescism” to be very powerful, and have been thinking about it a lot in the last few months. It was coined by a writer/thinker on reddit (they’re in the linked thread), and inspired by Hesse’s “The Glass Bead Game”, and the concept was introduced to me by @zeemarx_jeremyboom8. Here is an excerpt (though i recommend reading the whole passage, and perhaps the entire longer essay it is from, linked at the bottom of this post):

The TEAM is a procedure for relating with anyone, for any cause, and for knitting disparate intentions and groups into larger wholes.

First, there is the assumption holographic or stigmergic cooperation: We assume that “the Others” are already out there and already working with us. We assume that those others, too, have already discovered the Protocols, and the TEAM (though of course, under a different name), and that they are working to find us, to meet us, to exchange notes, and to build together the larger movement we have co-discovered.

EDIT: What’s powerful to me about it is the concept basically states that an idea, in abstract, already exists in the intellectual aether, and that when someone finds it, they can basically follow that idea to find the other people who have also found the idea, and that that “serendipity” is in fact more of a truism about the universe than an accident. I see this everywhere on this corner of the internet (holochain, ceptr, etc), and it has helped free me of the last shackles of “competition” that had been instilled in my by my upbringing in society. The ideas are already out there, there are many of us grasping at them and we will naturally find each other, and by seeing that as a true and beautiful thing, and working together when we find each other, we are limitless in our possibilities to enact meaningful change.


Beautiful. I will study.

That’s powerful indeed. I had this intuition that if a DAO of DAOs is created, everyone can be considered a member, even if they are unaware of the fact, or at the moment not working as member. We are all connected :slight_smile:

Also what that made me think of is this little concept:

Egregore (also spelled egregor; from French égrégore, from Ancient Greek egrḗgoros ‘wakeful’) is an occult concept representing a distinct non-physical entity that arises from a collective group of people.

Connecting to such an entity can be felt on physically sometimes (even if someone find references to occult woowoo stuff tasteless), it’s the feeling of belonging, compatibility, connection and participation.

Also, in the spirit of sharing sources, let me just briefly mention what I found worth reading/listening to: GameB idea, Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jordan Hall, John Vervaeke… I’ll make a list of recommended readings and sources one day, this I’m leaving here as pointers, for you dear reader, to discover, if you feel so inclined :slight_smile:

1 Like

Did you get the document? Have you had a chance to review it? dj.